1.     Don't be a dotard!
    Read these "rules" AND introduce
    yourself     before your first post
  2. A healthy approach to understanding measurements
    Being true to what the artists intended
  3. After being asked for the 308th time, Merv lists top 5 headphones
    (opinion / entertainment piece)
    Dismiss Notice
  4. $1000 to the first to design a headamp using discrete components with better measurements than Magni 3+
    Dismiss Notice
IMPORTANT: New Members Read This Don't Be a Measurement Fascist Merv's Top 5 Headphones - 2023 Edition $1000 Challenge

Amp/Dac recommendation for under $1000

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by mrcultureshock, Sep 13, 2016.

  1. mrcultureshock

    mrcultureshock New

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Hi all,

    I've been using a O2/ODAC combo with the Philips Fidelio X2 for a while now and I'm considering an upgrade in both headphones and amp/dac.

    Which amp/dac combo (or separates) would you all recommend as an upgrade to the O2/ODAC? My budget is $1000 (a little over is ok). I prefer solid state but I'd also consider tube amps. My favorite music genre is classical and opera.

    Thanks in advance and cheers!
     
    mrcultureshock, Sep 13, 2016
    #1
  2. BrettMatthews

    BrettMatthews Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2016
    Likes Received:
    201
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Canada
    BrettMatthews, Sep 13, 2016
    #2
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,938
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Hahaha. I'll still answer this because the answer is easy and obvious based on recent developments. Given where the OP is coming from... (~$1000, Fidelio, upgrade).
    1. HD650
    2. Schiit Jotunheim
    3. Schiit Modi Multibit
    4. Re-terminate HD650 cable to 4-pin XLR.
    GAME OVER.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2016
    purr1n, Sep 13, 2016
    #3
  4. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

    Staff Member Pyrate MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2015
    Likes Received:
    8,960
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Irvine CA
    ultrabike, Sep 13, 2016
    #4
  5. mrcultureshock

    mrcultureshock New

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    mrcultureshock, Sep 13, 2016
    #5
  6. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

    Pyrate BWC MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    18,829
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    On planet
    Add a Vali2 with a 6cg7 - for not much extra the listener can spend years exploring SS/Tube for themselves. Game over indeed.
     
    atomicbob, Sep 13, 2016
    #6
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,938
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    You might want to read the Jotunheim thread in respect to the HD650. Once you move up, you should always consider amp and headphone as one unit, one team. Source plays a part, but the interplay between the amp and headphone is crucial and is what often separates golden schlong award material from bronze warmbutt leakage. Kind of like how Misty May and Kerri Walsh > April Rose and Kerri Walsh.

    Also, and it doesn't seem you need this advice, stick with one or few headphones, and try to max them out instead of buying 10 headphones and being permanently stuck in mid-fi purgatory. The people I know with fantastic sounding systems stick with one or maybe two headphones and build from there, eventually obtaining the right source and putting in final tweaks.
     
    purr1n, Sep 13, 2016
    #7
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,938
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    My concern with Vali 2 is too laid back and slow for a laid back and damped sounding HD650. An HD600 would be a better match with Vali 2. Don't get me wrong as Vali 2 (with a more forward sounding semi-vintage Sovtek) worked in a pinch for me with the HD650 (modded); but ultimately I feel the Jotun / HD650 (balanced) is a much more satisfying setup.

    I'd also rather not send newer people coming from modest gear on tube rolling expeditions when they can simply get better amps. Tubes aren't cheap anymore and the ones worth buying often cost more than the Vali 2. Looking at how people roll tubes on HF (Feliks Elise thread) makes me wonder if people listen to tubes or to music. I would prefer that people listen to music.
     
    purr1n, Sep 13, 2016
    #8
  9. mrcultureshock

    mrcultureshock New

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Hi Marvey,

    Thanks for the advice! Do you think I should spend more on the amp/dac? I can do $1000. Which models would you recommend?
     
    mrcultureshock, Sep 13, 2016
    #9
  10. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

    Pyrate BWC MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    18,829
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    On planet
    I only rolled a few tubes through the Vali2 and stopped at a $20 current production Electro-Harmonix 6cg7. Sounds pretty good with the HD650 to my ears, which may be shot, or not. So for not much money I can do Tube/SS as the mood strikes.
     
    atomicbob, Sep 13, 2016
    #10
  11. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,938
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    In general, start off with headphone, then amp, then DAC. DAC differences are subtle, and can be appreciated best when the rest of the chain is good enough. The headphone makes the most difference. The amp next. The DAC the least. I am assuming that you will not be embarking on vinyl insanity, which I both highly encourage and discourage at the same time.

    The Jotun is a fantastic value. You can throw a $2000-$3000 DAC at it, and Jotun won't be holding you back much. You could do $1200, $1500, $2300+ tube amps, but that's a totally different direction, and let's not go there considering that you have a set budget. Stick to this budget and after your purchases, do not change your headphone/amp for at least a year, unless there is something that do you not like. The more I think about it, if you want to be cheap, you can order the Jotun with the built-in DAC; but I think the Modi multibit will play better with more types of headphones if you were inclined to try others. Jotun has a tendency of making DACs with treble issues sound worse and good DACs sound better. Bottom line with DACs is that you need to be spending $1000, $2000, $5000+ in DAC to get any appreciable jumps.

    I recommended the HD650 because it has some similarities to the Fidelio X2. Although the HD650 is less energetic in the treble, it is also smoother. Also, the HD650 responds well to easy mods. You can introduce some crispness to the transient response for zero dollars in five minutes if the HD650 proves too dull sounding to you. Properly powered and with a good source, the HD650 starts to run away from the X2. However, I don't think the HD650 will ever have the staging of the X2 because of how the X2 drivers are laid out. There are always compromises.

    Some people here take a source first approach (I am one of them), but this is because these people have heard so many different kinds of gear that they understand that source is supreme. This may seem contradictory, but it isn't if you think about it. It all depends upon where you are in the journey.
     
    purr1n, Sep 13, 2016
    #11
  12. mrcultureshock

    mrcultureshock New

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Understood. Thanks again for your advice!
     
    mrcultureshock, Sep 13, 2016
    #12
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,938
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Finally, go to meets. I think you've already introduced yourself. I'm getting a Jotunheim / HD650 (modded) combination together for the loaner program. Sign up on our loaner programs (we can make an exception for you after a simple security screening).
     
    purr1n, Sep 13, 2016
    #13
  14. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

    Staff Member Pyrate MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2015
    Likes Received:
    8,960
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Irvine CA
    Indeed! No replacement for listening things for yourself.
     
    ultrabike, Sep 13, 2016
    #14
  15. swamp

    swamp Acquaintance

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2016
    Likes Received:
    52
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Heh, this sounds like it shouldn't make a lot of sense, but it actually does make a lot of sense.
     
    swamp, Sep 13, 2016
    #15
  16. Huxleigh

    Huxleigh Almost "Made"

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2016
    Likes Received:
    935
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Somewhere dry
    I can vouch for this, personally. In my rather limited experience, the 650 likes a clean, tonally neutral amp. While the Vali 2 is by no means a bad choice, its character plays more to the 600's strengths. Better synergy. Tube rolling can affect this, but, as @Marvey and others have pointed out, it's pointlessly expensive when a better amp can be had for roughly the same combined price.

    As far as desktop amps that I've heard go, the 650 has sounded great from a Dynalo (e.g. GS-1) and a good M3. I like it best of all from my Sonett, which manages to be quite snappy without sacrificing any of the "weight" that makes tubes appealing. With some careful shopping, any of those amps can be had without busting the $1k mark. Just buy a Moby, and you'll be off to the races.

    To give a better idea of my own taste, I did not enjoy the 650 from a Bottlehead Crack. And I found the Valhalla 2 (stock) too dry with the 600. Asgard 2 didn't do anything for me with the 600, either. Too warm, although in a different way than the Crack. Valhalla 2 might've been a better match with the 650, but I didn't have one handy at the time. And, critically, bear in mind that none of these pairings were undertaken with Schiit's multibit DACs.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2016
    Huxleigh, Sep 13, 2016
    #16
  17. SHAWN P. WATSON

    SHAWN P. WATSON Acquaintance

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2016
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    FORT WAYNE, IN
    Marvey, I think this is extremely good advice and I want to thank you for that! I'm going to use it! I think you just saved me some money!!!
     
    SHAWN P. WATSON, Dec 19, 2016
    #17
  18. TheIceman93

    TheIceman93 El pato-zorro

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,300
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    SoCal
    For headphones, I would recommend the Audio Technica R70x but getting a HD650/600 seems to be a right of passage. If you go the Senn route, wait for the next round of the Massdrop HD6XX or buy used. Do not pay $500 for a 600 series. Its a 20 year old headphone, its ridiculous that Sennheiser is still charging that much.

    For the DAC/Amp. Go for the Schiit Modi Multibit and the Magni 2 Uber.

    The total for that whole package comes out to around $800 new. You can keep the price under $600 if you buy used on Headfi Classifieds. There are always Magni Ubers and Multibit Modi's on there.

    All these items are a substantial upgrade over the X2 and ODAC/Amp

    Personally, I'm loving my Neve RNHP / Modi Multibit combo for around $700 but others on SBAF aren't as jazzed about the Neve so I would try to demo gear before you buy to know what you like.

    I think the one item almost everyone would recommend would be the $250 Modi Multibit DAC. No reason to spend anything more unless you are getting into the over $1K DAC price bracket with R2R stuff like Metrum's and Multibit Gungnir.

    If you have up to $1K to spend just on a DAC/Amp, here are some good options (I haven't listened to all of these but barring the occasional scathing review, all of these amps have received overwhelmingly positive reviews)

    DAC: Modi Multibit - $250 (Buy this, don't even think twice ... seriously, IMO there are few if any DAC's sub $800 that are better)

    Solid State Amps:

    Schiit Magni 2 Uber ($150): http://schiit.com/products/magni-2
    Schiit Jotenheim ($400): http://schiit.com/products/jotunheim
    Burson Soloist SL MK2 ($500): https://www.bursonaudio.com/products/soloist-sl-mk2/
    Lake People G109S ($615): http://violectric-usa.com/headphone-amplifiers/g109-s
    Lake People RS 02 ($650): http://violectric-usa.com/headphone-amplifiers/rs-02
    Violectric V90 ($529): http://violectric-usa.com/headphone-amplifiers/hpa-v90
    Rupert Neve RNHP ($500): http://rupertneve.com/products/rnhp-headphone-amplifier/
    Cavalli Liquid Carbon ($800): https://www.cavalliaudio.com/products/liquid-carbon-2-0-headphone-amplifier
    Audio GD C-2 ($480): http://audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/C22015/C22015EN.htm
     
    TheIceman93, Dec 20, 2016
    #18

Share This Page