Nearfields for audiophile listening?

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by sashafuckinggrey, Feb 27, 2016.

  1. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

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    Does this look good to you? What advantage am I getting from this instability? Also, on a level desk surface, these stands do not bring the speakers to rest in a level position. Mine are on the verge of heading straight back to Amazon.

     
  2. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Are you constantly shaking the table/speakers? Mine wobble, but are not nearly that bad and slower, and come to a rest quickly. With the short poles it is very minimal.

    Supposedly, they are designed so that there is free movement in the axial direction/plane (I believe the words they used were "sympathetic vibration") in order to minimize wobble/tilt. I guess from their point of view, it is better to have that rather than movement that tilts the speakers. Whether that actually pans or matters in practice... *shrug*

    Meh, in a perfect world I would spike speakers into heavy blocks with additional weights compressing on top, then float/isolate the entire apparatus off the floor/desk/whatever. In the practical world, I need something that brings my speakers up with an angle and doesn't look like my reject woodworking project from junior high, and I nabbed the IsoAcoustics for a good price. I don't care about the coupling behaviour if I can't get the speakers positioned properly in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  3. Riotvan

    Riotvan Snoofer in the Woofer

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  4. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

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    No, obviously they don't wobble normally. The video is me moving the speaker with a finger to illustrate relative stability with the 8" poles. And truly, this amount of movement is really unnecessary. But given the design, how is it avoidable? The poles are a friction fit into seemingly high compliance rubber grommets encased in plastic. Probably inspired by Tinker Toys, although I bet I could build a more secure stand out of those. So at the end of the day, I'm pretty convinced their sales pitch is bullshit and merely a means of providing justification for overcharging for a cheaply made product. Am I totally missing something?
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  5. bixby

    bixby Friend

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    WTF!

    If you must use a desk, try something solid with something that decouples.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    I think their sales pitch of "sympathetic vibration" has some degree of merit. Whether the tradeoff of axial movement vs tilting motion actually bears fruit... *shrug*

    Tilting motion from a regular stand or no stand at all has a vertical component to the force which is what gets transmitted into the table. This motion also potentially scatters the dispersion vertically (tiny, but still there); the taller the speaker or stand, the worse it will be. Freedom to move in the axial direction means you remove the vertical component of the force (some, not all) so less energy goes into the table and there's no tilt, but your overall axial movement will be larger and that will affect your reproduction accuracy.

    As an aside, I did not realize tinker toys was an actual thing, so your phrase makes sense to me now after I've googled some images. I thought it was just a random made up name.

    Now the best of both worlds is something that mechanically couples (concerning mass) to the speaker, still allows some degree of vibrational decoupling. If such a device clamps above and below, then you can effectively limit movement to only the axial direction to a minimal amount which is ideal. Now make the whole thing heavy, sturdy while bringing my speakers up a foot, looks nice (ie: not a cinderblock on my desk), and do it for a hundred bucks.

    Meh, for me I don't really care about the coupling/vibrations/whatever. I just needed something to provide height, adjustable angles, and still look like a finished product.

    Though I'm sure it's fine, it makes me nervous when a speaker is balanced just from the center like that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  7. bixby

    bixby Friend

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    Not to worry, it is much more stable than it looks. Triangle supports are quite common and less apt to movement due to being a bit out of level than a four point setup.
     
  8. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Oh! I thought the two in the back was just a shadow and that your speaker was balanced on a single support in the middle.
     
  9. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    Here's my 2 eurocents on the whole decoupling matter...

    1. I can't see any benefit to decoupling a speaker from a solid surface. The cone should never be able to move the speaker enclosure, otherwise it's not transferring force to the air. I used to have an SVS SB-2000 sub, and it's low end extension was limited by cabinet mass, meaning that it played better if I sat on it, so it won't dance around.
    2. I think that most of the good these decouplers do comes from rising the speaker up and changing the early reflection ensemble or just angling them better to one's ears. An extra benefit of actual decoupling MIGHT be that you don't have vibrations going to your table and it doesn't make noise. In that case you'd need to fix your table so doesn't rattle!
     
  10. Changeling

    Changeling Tube Slut

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    Has anyone heard the new Genelec 8020D that came in April-ish?
    My contact has given me a good price, but it seems like the white version is more expensive...
     
  11. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Evil Dr. Shultz‎

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    You're aware both amps are class D now?
     
  12. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Saw some video. What's the stand that is supposed to protect from the planet's breathing or something? Up to that point, everything the guy said and demonstrated made sense.
     
  13. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

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    New plan: return the $90 Tinkertoy stand to Amazon, and go with a Sound Anchor stand. Double the price, but roughly 10x the quality with infinite height (up to 12" on mine) and tilt adjustability. I also don't see a strong need to decouple the stand from my high-mass desk.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  14. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    it sounds more like: "I dont understand the benefits of speaker decoupling systems so they have no merits"

    Isoacoustic, recoil, ect are innefective for LF decoupling.
     
  15. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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  16. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

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    The Sound Anchors have Sorbathane pucks between the speaker and the plate, with the option for Sorbathane pads between the stand base and desk surface. I'll probably have to experiment to get the right number of pucks in place between speaker and stand plate, but I won't use the latter.

    Resale, resale, resale. ;-)
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  17. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    I think they have merits.

    (Not entirely offtopic...)

    What I don't understand is the myth that spikes decouple. Since when did nailing a thing to something else decouple it?

    The use of spikes has always mystified me (and yes, I used to use them. On top of coins!) and I found this article interesting:

    Spikes and Cones – What’s the point?
     
  18. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

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    Spikes do not decouple.
     
  19. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Indeed, but a lot of people think they do.
     
  20. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    yes, spikes do not decouple

    heres a very interesting posts about the matter:

    "Spikes act like as springs. Very rigid springs.
    The combined effect of Mass ( speaker) x springs = Resonant Frequency normally located in the 1-3 Khz.
    This is bad because the system work in elastic reaction. The system is coupled below the FR and decoupled above Fr.
    The woofer shake your floor and viceversa.
    Diodes do not exsist in mechanic .
    If you want seryously decoupling all the frequencies 20-20000Hz
    you must employ a subsonic FR ie employ a very soft souspension,
    ideally below 5Hz with the minimal damping (important).
    In this case the system works in inertial reaction.
    The souspension filter the armonic spectra of the reaction that the floor act to the speakers movements. This is good because you minimize the exchange forces (vibrations) and maximise the immobility in the audio band.
    Yes the speaker float but it is near immoble in the audio band.
    Best method to obtain this are air spring or use long elastics from the ceiling ( bad WAF )
    You can solve all your problem of vibrations , as like every Lab in the worlds do : air spring or elastic cables tuned subsonically.
    see this article

    http://www.stereophile.com/reference/52/index.html

    or search " damped armonic oscillator "- principle

    hope this can help

    cheers,

    Paolo"

    ""You gain nada from the coupling, only problems. This is the point you do not realize.
    The object vibrate 90% because it exchange forces with the floor.
    You do not need any damping effect, the opposite is true.
    Zero exchange of forces. Only reaction of inertia.
    The reaction is the great problem.Not the opposite."

    http://www.northwardacoustics.com/portfolio/ this is a reknown acoustician. he recommends sorbothane and sylomer if suspended is not possible. you can see his elaborate decoupling speaker systems
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017

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