Nearfields for audiophile listening?

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by sashafuckinggrey, Feb 27, 2016.

  1. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    I think the 8260A are a bit overrated for simply hi-fi listening, they are a tool for pros, priced and packed with features accordingly.
    Sure, they are a bit better than say 8050A, but still the limitations of what Genelecs tend to have are there.

    The 10 inch non dsp sub didn't work with my 8050-s too well, almost impossible to integrate, and I think it's not enough for these anyways. You'd ideally need 2 of the 12'' ones for pair of 8050-s. All things considered better solutions can be had in simple 3 way speakers and for cheaper, too.

    - Try to audition JBL 3 way monitors, they are at least cheap.
    - Newer Adam S series 3 ways look interesting as well: link.

    Probably the reason why Adam A series sound like shit is the driver integration,
    the ribbon is simply 2 tiers higher quality transducer than the mid-bass it comes with.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2017
  2. econaut

    econaut Almost "Made"

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    Nice! Thanks to your post I discovered that some German shops are still selling the old Adam S3X-V which doesn't have DSP and use Class A/B amp for the tweeter. They are also quite "cheap" now that they are out of production.

    I plan to go to another city on Monday and demo S3X-V, Genelec 8040/8050 and the Hedd Type 20 again. I hope the S3X-V will be able to produce the "vanishing act" @iFi audio mentioned.
     
  3. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    I have the ATC SCM20's and you won't get the super deep bass extension. Actually, technically you do since you the sealed box rolls off more gently, but it won't "whomp" if that's what you're going for. If you like that clean sound of a sealed box though, the Neumann KH310 is worth considering (or the older model K&H o300).

    If you'd still like to try ATC, there's the SCM25.
     
  4. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    Neither are nearfields, if that's a requirement. You'd need around 2m between you and the speakers for proper summing. That's one of the reasons why I recommended the 8260, it has a coaxial TM array, which shrinks down the minimum distance for proper summing.

    What are these features that make sense for pro's and not for home users? AES is a pro standard for sure, but others are generally performance oriented.
     
  5. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    I suppose the 8260 is one of the few 10'' monitors that can be considered nearfield.
    Perhaps it's good idea to move to mid field if 35 Hz performance is priority.

    - 15 min dsp cal setup in any scenario
    - super compact (also compromise in sound performance) for portability
    - the ad-da conversion inside makes your 'audiophile dac' worthless, also not competing with better standalone dacs

    From my rather brief audition I got the feeling that the step up from 8250's was not that great, the price certainly was.
    Main differences were better mids and lack of 'suck out' at the crossover point of 8050/8250.
    Dynamics were roughly similar, it didn't sound like a proper big speaker.

    I think these are for someone who want great sound with next to no effort and call it quits.
    Most gents here wanna fiddle and split hairs.
     
  6. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    I dunno how rugged are you guys up north, but 28kg isn't exactly my definition of super portable! What do you think they would gain in the case of 8260 with getting a bigger enclosure? It currently goes sub-30Hz (free field), which is impressive and should be enough for most. Not to mention that alu enclosures get you more internal space, compared to MDF. Plus 8260 shrinks the baffle by using coax drivers, which bring nice improvements for off-axis listening.

    Both of these come with nice perks imho. Being able to room calibrate is a tremendous benefit for all home applications, especially when you take into account that this is a sub-bass capable system. Of course I'm biased, but it makes me go mad when some hi-fi enthusiasts come arguing about cables or driver materials, when their listening environments have +/-10dB irregularities in bass and sometimes even further up. Spending 15min to get improvements in multi-dB range seems a worthwhile trade-off.

    In the end I get what you're saying. I sold my Equators just for this reason.

    P.S.

    The more I fiddle with my subs, the more I'm starting to suspect that "big speaker sound" isn't what traditionally is considered as "correct". Doesn't mean it sounds bad tho.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2017
  7. chakku

    chakku Friend

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    Has anyone given the LSR708P a go? I didn't realize they had become available to consumers.
     
  8. econaut

    econaut Almost "Made"

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    I went to Cologne yesterday in order to demo the Adam S3X-V, Genelec 8050 and Hedd Type 20 again. It's a big store so one guy told me on the phone they would get these big boys out of the storage area for me, I should just talk to the other guys in the nearfield department. After three hours going by train the guys in the nearfield department told me they couldn't do it, because they only have sealed new ones and if they open them then there's an immediate loss of about 200 Euros each.

    Oh well, so I took some time with the other and mostly cheaper speakers in a "treated" room with VERY bad acoustics. Neumann KH310 had boomy overwhelming bass. Nothing more to say... Oh, and right channel was always louder than the left channel with every speaker :(

    Interestingly, Adam A7X and A8X sounded like shit and now that I listened to them the second time I could relate to your opinions about shrill treble. In that particular room it was only boomy bass and piercing treble (confirmation bias arrrrr ;-)

    I leave out my rather random thoughts about different other speakers. Most importantly, it was the Genelec 8040 about which I had nothing to complain about. It's just "right" to my ears. Again.

    But I found out something else I'd like to know your opinions on:

    Listening to the Hedd Type 07 it was the same as with Type 20 at the other place. The music did not vanish from the speakers. No problem with Neumann 310 and Genelec 8040. Intriguingly, I read some Hifi reviews on B&W bookshelf speakers tonight and one of the main quality criteria was this "vanishing act."

    The sales clerk said it had to do with the ribbon / X-ART / AMT-tweeter. I didn't understand his explanation (something with the vast amount of detail) but at least I made the same observation with the Adam A series.

    At the end I got into the high end room, but I didn't have much time left and my ears were fatigued already. Also the CD player didn't take my CD-R... Still, I noticed the same effect: Neumann 410 and Genelec 8351 had no problem with this issue. Adam S3X-H was better than the already mentioned speakers with ribbon tweeters. But there was a similar effect: It sounded as if the music was most of the time playing right and left of the vocals, not behind the vocals as with Neumann and Genelec and I perceive it to be desired.

    So here my question: Have you made similar observations? Can this somehow be related to ribbon tweeters? If this is the case that would give me a lot of orientation as per exclusion principle. But by now I am hooked on Genelec anyway, I guess...
     
  9. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    I'm aware about the theoretical limitations and advantages of non-dome tweeters of ribbon, AMT, planar and other varieties. but generally I've never found them to be too different performance wise. With that said I haven't heard RAAL and other higher end tweeters. Two of my favourite speakers use 1" metal domes which I've never found to sound metallic.

    Sometimes due to radiating surface geometry ribbons will have limited vertical directivity. Were you sitting squarely in the sweetspot? Also channel imbalance can be blamed on damaged balanced cables. Can't tell what was the case for sure.

    Well, get a pair of Gennies or Neumies, if you like them. Shouldn't be too hard to get rid of them, if something changes.

    Anything more to report on this speaker? I'm very interested in Genny coaxes.
     
  10. Titus Pullo

    Titus Pullo New

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    Has anyone heard the new Neumann KH 80s? I liked the KH 120s but they were rather warm and fuzzy. Neumann apparently has fixed this and beefed up the amp to nix the limiter in the 80s. They won't play as loud of course but more clarity and detail mean less temptation to crank them to 95 db + only a few feet from your face which is always a major temptation with low end monitors. I'm super interested given the price, size, and Neumann not using a metal or ribbon tweeter to destroy me.
     
  11. Metro

    Metro Friend

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    I haven't heard the KH 80, but I've been curious about it as an alternative to Genelec. An interesting aspect is that Neumann has been developing "Neumann Control" software that will do room correction calibration using the DSP in the KH80 (probably something like Genelec's SAM system). However, it looks like the software release has been delayed until next year.
     
  12. Jokko

    Jokko Friend

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    Listened for an hour today comparing Genelec 8050´s to Neumann KH310 in a good room. The engagement factor is way stronger on the 8050´s for me. Tone, bass, soundstage (8050´s was placed on the outside of the KH310´s though). Switching to Focal Trio6 after an hour shows the mids are tiny bit recessed, at least compared to the Trio6´s. Still, I´d buy the 8050´s for size, price, tone...

    Same here!
     
  13. Jokko

    Jokko Friend

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    I wonder if Devialet Phantom Gold's would be good in a nearfield setup, thoughts?
     
  14. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Evil Dr. Shultz‎

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    If you had them in a nearby field, sure.
     
  15. econaut

    econaut Almost "Made"

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    The channel imbalance didn't have anything to do with the soundstage / directivity "issues", I think. I noticed the channel imbalance also with speakers that had no problem with dissolving the music from the speakers. Anyway, Hedd and Adam is not longer of interest for me, makes things a lot easier ;)

    Concerning the 8351 I'm afraid that I'm not of great help. They sounded a lot brighter than the KH410, S3X-H and KSDigital speakers which were lined up next to each other on a meterbridge. BUT the reason is quite clear to me: They had been calibrated with SAM whereas the others had not (room was not treated, I think). The only problem: They have been moved afterwards.. Furthermore they were fed by a MacBook via Spotify, the shop was closing and I spent my concentration with the cheaper speakers before. Since I went there for the 8050 and S3X-V this might seem strange to you and to me as well in hindsight ;)
    Still I kind of liked the sound of the 8351 when not comparing it to the others. When doing this it seemed too bright.


    I will go to Berlin sometime in the near future and hope to get to demo Genelec 8260, Geithain and ATC there. Before I get a pair of 8050s eventually, I want to check out the difference to coax Gennies and other famous brands beforehand.
     
  16. thegunner100

    thegunner100 Hentai Master Chief

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    Has anyone tried out the Mini Philharmonitor or Sierra Luna yet?
     
  17. econaut

    econaut Almost "Made"

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    Does anyone know the dimensions of the IsoPod of the 8050s? There's no info in the manual...

    EDIT: Found some Genelec specific stands and it seems to be 195x170mm. Sorry for the overhasty post.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  18. iFi audio

    iFi audio MOT iFi Audio

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  19. Jokko

    Jokko Friend

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    I was impressed by the gold version in store, although only listened for a short time. Girlfriend approved looks of course...but I'm more comfy at 3000$ vs 6000+$ ;)
     
  20. Riotvan

    Riotvan Snoofer in the Woofer

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    Put some Sorbothane pads under my monitors, seems like a worthwhile upgrade. First impression is tighter sound and more plankton. The low end seems less boomy, running a sinesweep the FR sounds flatter. Imaging is less fuzzy in the centre... i could get used to this rather quickly :)

    Also found a local metal guy who is making me some custom heavy duty stands powder coated in silver grey to match the speakers and Schiit gear.
     

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