New Schiit / Preamps and Power Amp (was Putting the Schiit Signal Up)

Discussion in 'Preamps' started by purr1n, Oct 6, 2016.

  1. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
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    I'm going to leave this thread open for discussion of the Schiit pre and power amps. Some good questions have been asked and answered. I know some of you had questions on the 6SN7 tubes and the need for matching. Pairs, quads, not necessary? Perhaps @schiit can answer this.
     
  2. watchnerd

    watchnerd New

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    Does anyone have a closeup pic of the front plate that is high resolution enough to read the front buttons / switches?
     
  3. Sam Lord

    Sam Lord New

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    Will do. And thank you for keeping the thread open.

    OK.... I'm thrilled as hell about the Freya, it ticks 4 of the 3 boxes I had for my next preamp. The 4th was the tube option, didn't expect that, and absolutely not for just $700. It *will* sound great (woah, brave prediction). But I know nothing about 6SN7 tubes. I was just reading about how lots of these types are noisy, would like to hear some ways of dealing with that, beyond the obvious. They're being run at 300V, so right in the zone.

    As I mentioned before, Freya has 3 sets of outputs, 1 bal and 2 SE. That second set of SE outs is a big deal: far more than for XLRs, you want to separate those outputs if you have a choice: the grounds of HT receivers and whatnot can be nasty, you don't want that to contaminate whatever else you want to run. You can split rca outs, it's just nice not having to.

    For me, I'll use split XLR cables to run my amps which vertically biamp my mains. I'll send a set of the SE runs to my subs, the other is free. I might try out an EQ, been eager to build a Barry Porter EQ.
     
  4. watchnerd

    watchnerd New

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    Another option (and what I do when I want to play with EQ, which is admittedly rare) is to get a MiniDSP. Get the digital in / digital out version and stick it in the digital source chain before the DA converter. The MiniDSP software includes PEQ software.
     
  5. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
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    @Sam Lord and @watchnerd

    It's not working out. I have a bunch of reports and also a complaint from at least one admin.

    Too many posts here with dumbass speculation without a post in the intro thread. You are retroactively added to the pool of people who missed the cutoff for registration.
     
  6. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    On the 6SN7s:

    1. The preamps will ship with Russian NOS equivalents (6N8S). We've found these better than the affordable new-production tubes from Sovtek, EH, and JJ, though the EH can be pretty decent. Shipping with good (as opposed to affordable) new-production tubes would raise cost significantly.
    2. You'll want matched sections on Saga, and you'll want matched pairs at least on the front tubes on Freya. Front tubes are voltage gain, rear tubes are output buffers on Freya. Matching is less important on output buffers, but in general it's a good idea.
    3. We have not done extensive testing on super-rare, super-expensive, unobtainium/alien technology tubes, so we can't provide psychotherapy...er, I mean, recommendations on these. Mike will loudly and happily proclaim he loves RCA 5692s in all 6SN7 applications.
    4. There will be octal LISST eventually, if you're so inclined. Be patient. We're busy getting the preamps ready. First things first.

    On Vidar:

    1. I've finished the first round of torture testing on the amp this weekend, and it has passed (stable into 8 ohms and 4 ohms and into reactive loads, stable at high frequencies and in deep clipping, you know, stuff like that.)
    2. Current power output is 243W RMS into 4 ohms at 1% THD (onset of clipping). 200W into 4 ohms clocks in at 0.005% THD. This may change with small tweaks, but it probably won't change much. Also, those tests were done on a 113V AC line through a variac, which will limit power output.
    3. None of these results is particularly surprising--the amp is overdesigned for a 100W amp (Toshiba says it's fine to do a 100W amp with 1 pair of output devices; we used 3.) The amp also has over 600 square inches of heatsinking in the heatsinks themselves, plus 150 in the top chassis and 280 in the bottom (or something like that). That's not to say it will run cool under load--it's a fairly compact amp for its power, and the whole thing is aluminum, so it'll get plenty toasty.
     
  7. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    Also, a production update:

    Preamps:

    Will we be shipping by the end of the month? Maybe.

    As I may have mentioned before, all critical parts (metal, transformers, boards, etc, etc, etc) have been in-house for a while, and I'm just awaiting first articles from the assembly house to qualify. We get production very fast after qualification, especially given that the preamps at the show were assembled from production 1.0-level boards and from production metal. I don't expect a lot of surprises (but I've been, er, surprised before).

    If I see first articles this week, it's possible we'll be shipping by the end of the month. The products will go live on the site with full information only when they're ready.

    Vidar:

    We still have a fairly long road in front of us, mainly due to three factors:

    (1) Thermal testing.
    (2) Long-lead-time parts.
    (3) Factory ramp.

    Thermal testing is a "sit and wait" at the moment, because we're switching the bottom chassis to aluminum for better thermal performance. With both the top and bottom made out of aluminum, Vidar has a bit more dissipation area than the old Sumo Polaris 2, which was rated for 120/240 into 8 and 4 ohms, and 480W mono. So it should be fine.

    Thermal testing is also interesting, because the FTC has revised its stance on amplifier preconditioning recently (from 1/3 power for an hour to 1/8 power plus 5 minutes at full power.) However, Stereophile still uses the old 1/3 power preconditioning. I can already imagine the groaning that will come from their direction if the amp shuts down thermally during preconditioning, even though (a) they are using outdated test standards, and (b) they gave an engineering thumbs-up to a very, very, very, very, very expensive amp that not only shut down, but blew up during the preconditioning.

    But even if we have to change the design, I have an alternate heatsink with 76% more radiating area, so that's not a huge concern. It just makes the chassis a bit bigger, which I'd like to avoid. I expect we'll be done with thermal testing shortly after the revised bottom chassis shows up in a week or two.

    After thermal testing, though, we then have to wait for the custom heatsinks, which are going to be 6-8 week lead time. So there's a pacing item right there. That's about 2X the time we usually wait for transformers, etc--and right up there with metal.

    Finally, we can't forget the factory ramp-up. These are big, heavy products that we'll be making a lot of (unlike Ragnarok, which is a fairly low-production, specialty product). When you're shuffling thousands of big boxes through the shop, procedures need to be set, revised, and tweaked for best efficiency. So, expect that one in Q1. And not in January.
     
  8. Scott Kramer

    Scott Kramer Friend

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    @schiit Late night / weekend testing amps, you must be having so much fun... get to listen to music all the while I bet!

    Nice numbers 243W max / 200W 0.005 THD, wow
     
  9. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    Unfortunately, they're run into standardized test resistors, so it's not very exciting. Except for the fact that you can hear the transistors singing at high output (you can literally hear the test tones coming out of the interior of the power amp, due to thermal/mechanical stress. It freaks some people out when they first hear it.)
     
  10. Scott Kramer

    Scott Kramer Friend

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    Really interesting... you''ll need to test a CPU failure ;D see how it goes up in flames :D (take video please) -- of course it'll just trip the breaker
     
  11. nedifer

    nedifer Facebook Friend

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    Hi @schiit et. al.,

    Please pardon my ignorance--all my experience to date with amps and preamps (back to the (nice for its time) Sansui amp we gave my Dad in the early 1970s for his chamber music--which was my entry into hifi) has all been with solid state gear. So pardon the newbie questions...

    What do you mean by "matched sections"?

    I am quite intrigued by the Saga and Freya (though lack of funds steer that interest more toward Saga than Freya). I can intellectually see the advantages of matching tubes that are used in parallel, but don't know what matching sections means.

    Putting the cart before the horse, I know... But I am also very interested to know, once the preamps come out and people have had a chance to play with them, their impressions of how various tubes perform in each preamp. I am very intrigued at the prospect of tube rolling and playing with the sound and signature of the preamps but budgetary constraints as they are right now, I will not be able to experiment much until our kids are older or our income greater. So impressions any of the rest of the community can share will be greatly appreciated and closely followed, at least by me.

    Thanks!
     
  12. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    I've had transformer coupled amps that would "sing" through their coils...
     
  13. WNovizar

    WNovizar Facebook Friend

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    Oh wow WTF happened in this thread, so much banhammers

    On the other hand, nice to see them Freya testing results, bummed that I can't get my 6922 tube collections to use when I get this......eventually.
     
  14. drfindley

    drfindley Secretly lives in the Analog Room - Friend

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    Some of the NOS Russian tubes have been my favorite. Specifically EI tubes.
     
  15. bobsherman

    bobsherman Acquaintance

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    Thanks for all the great info and the upcoming products, cool stuff. Yes Mike is right the 5692s are great tubes. But... IMO there are so many wonderful sounding 6SN7s out there still, people will have no problem getting the sound they want from your new Schiit. Been using tubes in audio since my teens (too many years) and no matter what tube you use, the circuit makes the difference. Thanks Jason! :)

    Regards
    Bob
     
  16. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    I now have a mental image of you guys testing amplifiers until they scream. It is weird and freaky. Had no idea at all about such phenomena
     
  17. Scott Kramer

    Scott Kramer Friend

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  18. aafnp

    aafnp New

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    What sonic difference would you all expect from the vidar vs. other power amps with equivalent output?
     
  19. Malabargold

    Malabargold Flipper

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    After extensively testing my personal, pre-release Vidar just for you the answer is....:rolleyes:

    (Pre-amp release should be any day now for those with schiit-anxiousness)
     
  20. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    I realized I could extend some of my balanced headphone cables and put the Jotunheim on my audio rack. Since whatever future power amp I choose most likely won't have balanced ins, I can run the balanced outs from the Freya into the Joti and the SE out into the power amp. That way the Joti can continue to benefit from the Modi Multibit and get a tube buffer as well. And I can listen to vinyl on headphones if I felt like it.
     

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