Are Audeze really that bad quality-wise?

Hi guys,

Stuck on a TOTL headphone choice situation, so decided to write here. I do understand that newbie posts belong on head-fi probably, but from my short experience, for every question you ask there, you have a very high chance of somebody recommending an Ultrasone, Fostex TH-xxx or custom super-cables even if it does not even relate to your question. Weird.

As a fan of warm-to-neutral sound (the amount of HD650 talk here is astonishing), I am looking for a somewhat-TOTL headphone to upgrade to. Previously/currently owned include HD600, HD650, Momentum and HE-400i, among others.

My obvious upgrade-itis choice was Audeze, starting with LCD-2. Seen a lot of posts here and there bashing Audeze (mostly LCD-3) for bad quality control. Not sound variance, let's ignore that for a bit, just quality control (drivers failing, wood cracking and also that legendary head-fi post with horrible measurements, bad earpads, etc.). I've decided to disregard that: usually, you cry and moan if you have a defective product and enjoy silently if you have a good one, right?

I've demoed LCD-2, and I absolutely loved the sound. I've A/B'd it with HD800 (my other contestant) and even classical music sounded better (for me, of course!) on Audeze. Senns are obviously in a better league technically, detail and soundstage, but when it comes down to just my taste, guess Audeze is the best.

However, a shiny new headphone (I've clearly seen the box opened as new, with stickers and everything) I've demoed in a shop was defective. It had a misplaced fazor in one of the cups, and a physical build defect as well (bad bending of the steel element). That was quite shocking for a $1K headphone—guess nobody does manual QC, then?

So I've started reading a lot of threads bashing Audeze lately, and I see a lot of people complaining about failing drivers (I kind of thought that was an LCD-3 problem, but a lot of people with 2's complain as well) and other problems. Sure, they have a nice guarantee, but being far away from the US every replacement for me can take more than a month of wait for both ways. Also, there is still that thing when it is strange to pay premium for a headphone that may very, very well be defective. There is also the results of Tyll's epic headphone shootout with Audeze scoring really low and his post here about removing LCD-3 and -X from WOF.

I can also shop for LCD-3, but I guess things get even worse from there from QC standpoint.

So here's what I'm getting at:

— Do you guys think that Audeze issues are exaggerated, and they are mostly still a good company and the risk of getting a bad unit or driver failing is low? Maybe some present or past Audeze owners?

— I can also get HD800 with a huge discount, but it is definitely a bright headphone and I can't see it as something I would love after HD650-like sound; I did not try Anax mod, though (did not think of, well, making the mod materials to install it on a demo unit in a shop, that would be very high level of weirdness), so I don't know if it just removes the sibilance or actually makes the headphone warmer. Any comments on that? Should I calm the f down and just get the 800 and mod it?

— Any other headphones in that range I should be looking at, besides the Ether?

Thanks for your time.

 

First: These are my opinions; I'm biased, like everyone else, and I haven't heard everything in the world.

I've owned an EL-8C, LCD-X, an LCD-3F, and now the LCD-4. My boss owns an LCD-3F and an LCD-X. Zero problems with any of them, all built perfectly and sound amazing (and consistent). I'm also friendly with a local shop that has another LCD-X which is also perfect and sounds identical to mine and my boss's. LCD-3F drivers used to be problematic, which is where that reputation came from, but they fixed the issue that was causing that and I have it on very high authority that they have virtually no failures now. The way it was explained to me is that if they had as many driver failures as are claimed on forums, they'd long since be out of business.

I very strongly opine that Audeze problems are overstated on the forums, especially today as opposed to in the past. And I can vouch firsthand for their customer service being excellent and them standing behind the products.

For your stated preferences, I wouldn't recommend the HD800 based on my own personal experience. I own one and have a spent a lot of time with it along with my Audeze headphones. It's an amazing headphone, and I love it, but with what you're looking for, your suspicion that it'd be too bright is probably correct.

I've spent a couple weeks with the Ether, and I also feel that an Audeze headphone would serve your preferences better.

If I were in your shoes, I personally would go for the LCD-3.

 

Re quality, you're not going to be able to get anything other than dueling anecdotes. It's my fervent hope that there aren't real quality issues, but short of seeing into Audeze's books, nobody really knows.

Re the LCD-3/X being removed from the Inner Fidelity WOF, I think the way to look at that is: You've got three fairly similar headphones all up on what's supposed to be a very selective list. Just as the HD-650 isn't on the list in favor of the HD-600, it seems pretty reasonable to pare the Audeze representation down to a single model, and probably the LCD-2 is the best value of the three, just on the basis of price.

I've got an LCD-X (X because I sometimes want to plug it straight into a tablet to watch Netflix, plus honestly I don't like the wood look), after decades of listening to the 580/650, and I super-love it; I loved it when I first heard it, and I still love it every time I listen to it. I haven't had it long enough to speak about quality control, but if you liked the sound of the LCD-2 on audition, I don't think you need to worry about that fondness evaporating after you buy it.

 

They've pretty much nailed down the LCD-2 quality wise. We measured two pairs of same revision and they weren't that far off AFR wise from each other. At least - not any further than what we've seen from other manufacturers.

 

Always keep a healthy level of objectivity when assessing these things, let's face it how many people are actually on these forums? If they had that many problems, they probably would have felt it much faster than this. Sure there's definitely some quality control on different sounding headphones and all that jazz but that's up to you to decide if that would change your mind, is the variance enough to be off-putting to you that is.

Being wary is a good thing but don't get lost in it either, I think Audeze has a pretty big customer base by now, loyal as well. Hell plenty of people still have the original LCD-2s with no quality issues.

I can say however that I wouldn't recommend the HD800 for your specific needs. While I myself have a HD650 as a side grade coming in, my HD800 is really not the same subset. Laid-back vs. critical and unless you enjoy critical listening, this might not be the best can for you.

On a different note, what amp are you using for the HD650? And what DAC?

 

Oh, sorry, forgot about the source. I'm using Chord Mojo (both 600/650 and LCD-2 are powered just fine).

And tastes: electronica, ambient, psy stuff and some classical music.

 

Oh, I see. What about the -3 or -X, though?

 

4 1/2 years of lcd-2 ownership - one driver failure. prompt and friendly customer service tho so i think there's nothing for you to worry about!

 

I must be a planar defect magnet, since all I've owned went to repairs.. LCD-2.3 drivers once, LCD-3c drivers once (actually owner before me RMAd them + the person I sold them to did them third time, haven't heard since..), one defect LCD-3 cable, HE-500 channel imbalance once, HE-560 imbalance / driver rattling four times, gave up after that..

 

Does the warranty transfer in the used market?

Everything I've seen about Audeze as a company is very positive to me. If you buy from them, you can return the headphones within 30 days just for the price of shipping.

While I've seen a lot of posts about driver failure and repairs, they fix them for people every time. That's awesome service.

I've nearly bought Audeze cans several times, only to shy away because of the price.

 

It's also awesome to pay 60€+ (much more if insured) every time to ship them back. Unless you actually coughed up the money for a brand new one from your local dealer, which (hopefully) handles the shipping part. Then you receive a pair with brand new "revised" drivers that sound different (but to be fair, they could be better).

 

That coupled with the previous high price of driver replacements for people out of warranty. I think Prior to Feb 2015 LCD-3 driver replacement was $800. Then slashed to $375 - in what seemed like a direct response to a thread of unhappy customers on HF and no doubt stuff on CS too. So pretty sucky for people pre-Feb 2015 who were in that danger-zone for pre-fazor / out of warranty driver failures and ended up paying a lot for replacements.

Seems like a better situation now. I think it's $250 for LCD-2 driver replacements. Warranty is fully transferrable - I very recently checked on that. Just sold a pair with 2+ years remaining and felt pretty good about it knowing the next buyer was covered and wouldn't be screwed too badly if anything went wrong much further down the line.

 

In terms of the product not working or in being a total dud? Yeah they've mostly fixed that but the current Fazors LCD2/3 are not as good as the best pre-fazors (I've never heard one of the supposedly great pre-Fazor units) and have a strange timbre.

Actual internal QC within products or between individual units remains poor so you will hear (or see if you measure) different frequency responses, tonalities (veiled vs not veiled in the upper mids is very common and you can see this even on the LCD-4 frequency charts from Audeze themselves), and channel imbalances that can screw up imaging. Much of this has to do with Audeze apparently not having as stringent manufacturing standards as other companies for their drivers or the parts they use in them. Sonarworks for example doesn't have a general equalization preset for their headphones as they simply vary too much in sound between units and channels to make. Caveat emptor.

 

I haven't been following any LCD threads lately, but my LCD-3F wood cups cracked this year (second time in less than 12 months) and Audeze replaced them for free. They did charge me the $250, but then credit it back after I showed them an email where they said they'd cover them again (under warranty they are only covered once). The drivers only failed while they were LCD-3's.. the fazored drivers have been fine.

I'm personally off Audeze after my experience, but I've also tried LCD-2 and 3's at meets that sounded ok and had survived just fine without any replacements. I preferred the non-fazored LCD's I've heard, but I also prefer other headphones to them as well... so I think it just comes down to personal preference as well. I expected that all LCD-3's should sound more or less the same, which I didn't find to be the case. I would be pleasantly surprised if the 4's sound as tight QC wise as HD-800's. (Speaking strictly in terms of variations between headphones, not sound quality wise).

 

Good to hear Audeze has mostly fixed their QC issues. I quite liked the LCD-2 to be honest.

 

Forgive me as I am in the basking in the new[old] toy syndrome....

I was actually about to buy an hd800 for the third time when I saw drfindley's LCD-2s for sale here. I have tried the hd800s stock and modded and while I do respect their TOTL status, I have never quite enjoyed them like I do Audeze's cans. I am sure drfindley can speak better to the history of the pair I am listening to, but they seem to sound like a "respectable" offering. I previously owned an LCD-3(pre-fazor) and ran into the weird lack of treble issue that some experienced but I am not hearing that "softness" here.

I suppose this is a roundabout way of saying, yes, there are QC issues with older Audeze, but if you can find a pair that work, you aren't going to get that same enjoyment from Senn's face tweeter.

Now check back with me in a week when one of the driver fails or I find out that these are a "bad" pair and the audiophilia nervosa takes over.

 

Well I've owned a pair of LCD2.1 (bought 2nd handed) and a LCD3 Fazor bought new. Nothing happened to my lcd2 but there's a driver mismatch for my lcd3f. Hands down for their customer service though, problem was solved pretty fast and good communication maintained along the way. They said the newer version of fazor drivers were installed but honestly I didn't hear a difference based on memory.

So personally speaking, all those stories won't stop me from buying their products and I'm guessing calling customer service for like once two years won't be too much of a deal breaker.

 

Not directly related to your 3 questions, but with the context of owning an LCD-X and liking it I would say it and the LCD-3F are overpriced considering the relative improvement over the LCD-2, which is probably the best bang for the buck in their current lineup.

Other than the Ether, a different flavor might be the Oppo PM-1 / PM-2 or the Audio Zenith PMx2?