Are headphones just inherently bad at imaging vocals?

It seems to be something about the way they image in the centre I'm finding hard to hear distinctly. I noticed that if I only listen to one side or pull both away and in front with a bit of an angle toward you then the vocals are at the forefront as they should be. Putting both back on and vocals go back to an indistinct distant/recessed perception in the middle of the head. EQ and volume never help, nor does crossfeed.

The SBAF-modded HD650 seems a bit better at this than other headphones. Though if I remove the front foams they are just as bad as the HD800, but at the same time their L/R imaging and separation vastly improve. Taking the cups off the TH900 increases overall image size and separation which helps, rotating the angled pads 180 degrees focuses the image more, breaking the pad seal clears things up a touch. Even tried putting the HD650M front foams in them, which subdue and somewhat degrade the L and R to the benefit of the centre's prominence. Bringing it close to the HD650.

This does seem to vary quite a bit with different tracks. Some seem to be mixed with the vocals recessed, 90s Rock/Metal for example. I did an FR sweep and my ears seem fine. I suppose this is the limitation of strapping speakers either side of ones head, this is just how our brains process an incredibly unnatural audio source?

I've noticed this more and more over time. But now that I've become so aware of it it's putting me off headphones altogether, I can't un-hear it

 

This is pretty much it. Crossfeed alleviates it a bit, but not all. There are some better options out there that will attempt to do the HRTF math. Look up Out Of Your Head software, or try TB Isone.

 

What's your upstream gear? I had it real bad with HD800 a while back when I fed them junk.
Speakers can't be beat by headphones for imaging, mess all you want with dsp.
Imo all the crossfeeds and hrtf gadgets do is blur out the 'problems', not cure them.
Have you done any cable building lately? Inverted phase in one ch would really eff up center image.

 

I had the exact same issues. My solution seems to have been a series of DSP plugins plus a phase reversal cable (added the cable today). Check out the thread and post in the quote below.
It has worked very well for me. We will see in the long term, but so far I'm happy.

 

Putting some rolled up TP under the rear half of HD650(M) earpads to angle them so the drivers are coming at your ears more from the front helps bring the image forward a bit. Doesn't overcome the inherent drawbacks of headphones though.

 

Thanks so much, guys.

My chain is currently Tidal -> Audio Hijack + TDRNova PEQ -> Modi Multibit (/GO450) -> Mjolnir 2 XLR output-> HD650M/HD800/TH900-open back.

The veil from the Modi Multibit isn’t helping, especially as I’m not using optical at the moment. I’ve been waiting for the Bifrost Multibit V2. I’m now even more impatient for it.

I did a little test where I set a -1ms delay to one channel to break the centre imaging. It worked and vocals were more prominent. But of course it sounds messed up, with everything shifted to to one side.

I went through all of the software based suggestions as best I could via Audio Hijack, and went back and forth with all my gear to compare and rule out issue there. I already EQ manually using IFs raw measurements and the Harman Target as a loose reference. I have tried Sonarworks' new website demo but take issue with their target response, and HD650 measurements. I tried crossfeed again but it made little to no difference to this particular aspect, and as I've found previously it ruins the low end. Only one thing really tackled this issue, and it does it pretty well.

Waves NX is really impressive. The centre image expands and comes alive. Without it vocals on a lot of tracks sound like their coming from behind a wooden door. Things sound more like their coming through open air, like speakers. Imaging fills out more and is more accurate, working more like a two channel speaker system, albeit a very small one. It’s not perfect and it can sound a touch artificial in other ways, EDIT: a little metallic sounding. It is somewhat bright sounding, but that can be compensated for via EQ. EDIT: It also increases volume. I used the trial of the system-wide version and set it to the Voice profile to minimise the reverb. First impression is that it works more transparently than your typical crossfeed or surround sound DSP. My HD800s are now back on my speaker stand as the larger imaging, and I expect it's resolution and speed, combined with NX are what really clinched it for me.

My preliminary conclusion is that a headphone with large imaging and a good spatial acoustics DSP, as well as EQ, are mandatory for headphone listening. Without this I believe I would have ended up reluctantly moving to two channel. I’ll need to road test this for a while.

 

Personally I couldn't hear any difference on HD800 with Sonarworks alone, but with NX activated it became much easier and only then worth the cost. NX on it's own is of course easy to hear, but again for me it was the sum of all parts that did the trick. Sonarworks together with NX made a big difference on HD800 for me.
I can't hear the brightness you're mentioning, but maybe it's a combination of my chain + having the HD800's modded...

 

I have a Monitor Audio ASB-2 soundbar that uses phase and timing DSP to adjust the HRTF to widen the stage and do virtual surround. It works pretty well for what it is, when fed a 5.1/7.1 signal. One of the things I noticed is that when the DSP in enabled during 2-channel music playback things sound awfully bright, (EDIT: and sort of metallic sounding. Same with NX). My understanding is that phase and timing tricks are predominantly done in the high frequencies. So this may explain what I'm hearing with NX as I believe it is doing something similar.

I think it was more noticeable with the open back TH900, enough for me to go and adjust the EQ.

EDIT: The Sonarworks demo sucked out the upper midrange/lower treble from the HD800. The graph shows that it flattens the HD800's 3.5khz upward curve.

EDIT: I'm actually finding the extra brightness of NX "helping" the vocals a little. I'm also finding that it may become fatiguing, not yet certain if that's the brightness or NX's processing. Something about it feels harsh.

 

Well, that didn’t last past the morning.

NX just sounds too artificial and harsh, otherwise it would have been helpful. Also the veil from the Modi Multibit, and probably the Mjolnir's stock tubes, are hindering clarity in this area a lot more than I am happy with.

For the last few days I was only listening to the HD800, HD650M no foam, and TH900 open back. The more open the headphone the more withdrawn and less focused or discernible the centre imaging seems to be. Today I returned the TH900 to stock and put the front foams back in the HD650M. The HD650M has the largest most forward centre vocals, but the stock TH900 has the clearest yet pretty small. I find them much more tolerable than anything fully open. Each having the benefit of damping materials. Any thoughts on what these materials are doing, aside from frequency response, to effect the imaging so?

Are there any TOTLs that do large forward vocals like the HD650M, or with the clarity of the TH900? Perhaps the Eikon or HEK?

 

The Modi Multibit is very source sensitive (moreso than the bigger Schiit DACs). You won't get decent transients and small details, especially highs, unless you use a good low phase noise S/PDIF source. This is annoying, as most good sources cost more than the Modi Multibit, or close to it.

An OK cheap/easy option would be a Breeze U8 and a short glass optical cable. A slightly more fiddly option would be a Raspberry Pi with a Hifiberry Digi+ Pro as an endpoint. You can use coax with the Hifiberry, though a lower noise PSU and disabling all the on-board wireless radios and knocking the clocks down can help keep noise at bay.

USB or motherboard SPDIF won't give you terribly good results (in slightly different ways).

This still blows my mind, as you generally seem to have a pretty good ear. When I loaded the HD800 profile, selected the flat preset and activated it, it was very "boom, headshot!". I'm not the best audiopeeper around here by any means, but it was stinkingly obvious to me- fuller mids, toughened up bass, everything sounding less "thin".

 

Most closed and semi-closed headphones do not do a great job with the vocals.

Open headphones tend to sound better but even then imagine a choir in a chapel of cathedral.

Yeah headphones are compromised. Even so well tuned they can do a decent job within their limitations.

 

I have to revisit this. Too many have witnessed that they hear a clear difference.
But with my setup on/off testing did nothing for me but repeating the exercise with NX activated Sonarworks on/off was obvious.

 

Do that. It wouldn't be nearly as weird if you weren't someone who can usually pick out differences quite consistently. I mean, we're not talking about that famous "day and night" belov'd of Head-Fi, but it was certainly a lot more pronounced than some of the tube swapping that you like to do. I wonder what's going on there?

 

Maybe I'm hearing more change than there is.....

 

Haha, the terror!

I'd say something must have been amiss. I've read your tube roundup, so multiply that statement by 10x.

 

One thing is for certain. The effect of changing tubes in both Mjolnir2 and Vali2 has come down quite a lot since going down the IVS path, I believe others has come to similar conclusions.

I also think I've been quite conservative with promoting tube rolling in general in my roundups, we are talking the last 1%, and I've tried to relate impressions to cost as well..... (But it still is awesome to install an almost brand new pair of late 1950s Siemens CCa's in the Mjolnir2)

Anyway, I stand by my initial impressions; Sonarworks + HD800 only didn't do anything for me, positive nor negative.
Sonarworks + NX + HD800 made a big difference where SW on/off was easy to spot.
With the complete IVS the positive effect of SW was even more distinct.

I can't remember if I tried Sonarworks with HD650 alone, I might have - and perhaps my impressions were different.

As promised I will go back and try using Sonarworks alone with HD800 and publish my findings.

 

IVS path?

 

Yes, Immersion Virtualization System, see below.

http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/system-synergy-special-sound.54/page-14