Audeze LCD-3 after 2016 driver revision

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by Mithrandir41, Jan 26, 2017.

  1. Mithrandir41

    Mithrandir41 Friend

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    Yes, another case of Audeze headphones failing. In my case I bought a used pair from a guy in Studio City. I don't know how long they had been in use, but they had the fazors. Long story short, they failed after about 7 months of my use. I was curious about the 2016 driver revision, so i dropped the bones to have them repaired (current price $500). I know some people have huge issues with Audeze reliability, and I get that, but the LCD-3 scratch a particular itch, just like the Senn 6XX series do for some others.
    I'll just say the 2016 models still retain the very warm signature sound they are known for. Dark headphones for sure with no peak in the upper midrange (so sounding a bit dark) and just the slightest emphasis in the lower treble to make cymbals shimmer (but not too much). They have a good sense of "air" as well. While being slightly rolled off at the top, it's not substantial i.e. the Oppo PM-3, which I love as my portable 'phones. I doubt unless you're a Beyer-loving treble head, you'll miss much in the treble on these. I love midrange most on these. I'm a rocker in general and love progressive and metal in particular. The mids have a slight lower emphasis and sound very detailed, high resolution and textured. Compared to the Utopia, I prefer the mids on the LCD-3 as they really give a ton of texture to guitars and I don't notice any shoutiness with vocals.
    My Utopias are definitely overall clearer-sounding, mainly because of the slightly more prominent presence region, I think. But I think the LCD-3s sound a bit more textured in a way. I used the ampsandsound Kenzie (single ended) and the Schiit Mjolnir 2 (balanced) for all my listening. I have been debating selling my Utopias. They sound great, but I listen to a shit load of rock, and even running some pretty warm sounding tubes (RCA branded Siemens gold pins) they can be slighty bright or peaky in the treble, whereas the LCD-3s, while being dark-ish sounding are extremely non fatiguing while still being extremely detailed and tight sounding.

    That's my 2-bits on the revision
     
  2. rott

    rott Secretly hates other millenials - Friend

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    Interesting comparison with the Utopia. Have you had a chance to try the LCD-X? I love mine, but I think what I've read about the LCD line's variation just within the same revision, let alone having numerous revisions lends itself to them being so hit or miss.
     
  3. Mithrandir41

    Mithrandir41 Friend

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    I have tried the LCD-X. But Rather than a half measure, I would probably just go with a different brand. Probably the Ether flow. I don't like the closed model very much, but I like the open model quite a bit. they are slightly bright, Similar to the Utopia, but less fatiguing for rock at higher volumes. I actually really like the Utopia, but I will always feel that the bass balance is a little off,and they could do with slightly better resolution for the price
     
  4. Bagged Milk

    Bagged Milk Friend

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    I tried a 2016 LCD-3, but I wasn't impressed.

    I also mainly listen to progressive rock and early metal, and I found the upper mids to be too withdrawn, plus the pair I heard had a grainy 10k peak that really bothered me with cymbals and hi-hats. Resolution was slightly better than my HD600, but the soundstage presentation was 2D and flat in comparison, along with the tonal balance sounding off to me.

    I also didn't find the bass all that impressive. Actually, I preferred the HD800's low end as it had more impact in the mid bass without being less clean.

    Probably just different preferences though. They weren't bad sounding by any means, but they just didn't jive well with me.
     
  5. Mithrandir41

    Mithrandir41 Friend

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    I totally get that. they do have a slight presence veil, but nothing ever sounds harsh. as for the 10k peak, for me it's not grainy, I find it smooth, if just a touch too prominent. For my Rush, Dream Theater, Periphery, Aristocrats, I have no complaints. Ok, maybe one. I think Oppo mastered this sound signature better with the PM--3. Those are warm sounding headphones as well, but they have the proper upper midrange to sound less veiled (and they cost substantially less).
    Overall, I think warmer-sounding recordings fall on the dark side with the LCD-3, but bright recordings/masterings sound more pleasant than on my Utopias.
     
  6. loplop

    loplop Acquaintance

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    I have a pair of late 2016 LCD3. I haven't yet wrapped my head around them.

    Compared to my LCD2F, they have more detail, are smoother (none of the LCD2 grain), have better micro dynamic shadings and more fleshed-out instrument timbres, and the soundstage is more open and resolved, yet still somewhat narrow in ultimate terms. But they're not as fun, or as universal across genres.

    Compared to my LCDX (2016), they are far, far more laid back, with less apparent dynamic punch and contrast, more smoothness, the presence region is somewhat veiled/dark sounding, the 3 reveals more inner detail albeit less in a less in-your-face-fashion than the X. There's more richness in the mids that gives just that bit more lifelike sound to anything that lives there (aka a lotta stuff). Soundstage is narrower on the LCD3 vs the X, but slightly deeper. Bass is far less extended on the LCD3, to the point that I tend to use a tad EQ to bring it back up. The LCD3 is polite on the extremes (both ends of the freq spectrum).

    On a positive note, the LCD3 play very well with the tube (pre) modes on my iCAN Pro. They're more picky about what they are fed, and seem to benefit from using a balanced amp. Oddly, even though they are (as you stated @Mithrandir41 ) a bit dark in the overall scheme of things, they can reveal some nasty brightness at times if you, for instance, have your upstream gear not well sorted. More prima donna in this respect than the 2's and the X's, but seem to scale better.

    On a negative note, I have not yet decided whether I like them. I get along very well with the X's, and something a bit darker/richer in that family really appeals to me. But there's something a bit too polished about these at times; too laid back, too refined. While I have had some "yeah I love these" moments, I have at other times felt that I missed the more vivacious X's--to the point I felt a bit bored by the LCD3's.

    I really don't know what to think of them yet. I thought it would be as simple as "grab the LCD3's, turn on the tubes, and kick back with some post-Bop" but it just isn't that simple. Some days I love them, many days I'm nonplussed by the fact that I don't really have any feeling at all towards them. I probably just need to stop futzing about with them as a "I'd prefer a bit more lushness today" set of cans, and more a "don't ever unplug from the iCAN Pro's balanced socket" type of can. I plan to do that over the next month or so.
     
  7. chopstix

    chopstix Canali at HF (keeping him close)

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    subbing to this helpful thread as i find the info useful

    ...i have senn 650s and am looking for something with more punch, detail
    and still a good sense of balance...haven't tried audeze (nor mr speakers or hifi man)
    before...

    audeze, when i emailed them, recommended the ldc3 as best
    value (but needs more juice to drive them) or the lcd-x (easier to drive).
    was/am also considering grados or others...just trying to explore...for rock, blues, jazz, classical.
    in other words, a versatile set of cans which is what most of us want, ideally.

    my sources: chord mojo, iFi micro idsd (might be selling) and mapletree ear+ hd tube amp.
     
  8. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    In your case, I suspect the first order of business is a better DAC and amp, rather than spaffing money on random funny-sounding Grado and Audeze headphones. Headfi-style random sidegrades are tiring to even read about.
     
  9. Mithrandir41

    Mithrandir41 Friend

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    If there's a dealer nearby, try and listen to something first. The LCD-3 is darker than the 650 in tone, but I think it's a little more resolving. It all depends on what you prefer. The 650 is mid-forward, and is lacking in bass impact and extension. I always thought the HD 650 was mediocre, even on a good rig . I prefer the bass extension of Audeze headphones in general. They are heavy though. Never mind the grados. Unrefined crap. Find something you like and don't let the naysayers stop you.
     
  10. loplop

    loplop Acquaintance

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    I will have a pair of HD650 next week, I'll have thoughts on how they compare to the Audeze's in the coming month.

    I'd say if you were looking for punch and detail, and you want to try an Audeze planar, I'd go for LCDX. FWIW, YMMV, and all that. I really enjoy my LCDX, and FWIW they get along great with the Micro iDSD (I have the BL). ifi likes the iDSD BL matchup with the HD650, also, FWIW.

    I've not heard the Mapletree, but it looks like a reasonable circuit with tubes that I enjoy. I'd lean towards keeping that and adding a nice SS amp for a different flavor. Perhaps a Jot, which is highly recommended here, or a Rag if you want to go all out; Alternately if you'd like to stay with ifi, an iCAN SE or iCAN Pro. The Micro iDSD's are a great source for the price, and I'd suspect your money is better spent on the amp side before the source side.
     
  11. chopstix

    chopstix Canali at HF (keeping him close)

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    thanks, but what is wrong with the mojo or mapletree amp? i've only read good things on them.
    or would you suggest (I am interested, to be frank, in the hugo2
    when it comes out...or the new wadia 122(?...friend has that, loves it...big wadia fan, esp from one who once had a $70 system).
     
  12. loplop

    loplop Acquaintance

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    I think @Kattefjaes point was that moving from an iDSD Micro to a Mojo is a sidestep. No better, no worse, just different. That's not a smart use of funds (I can say this as I've made the mistake far too many times in my life...)
     
  13. Mithrandir41

    Mithrandir41 Friend

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    Actually, he was referring to side grades in headphones. This forum has a lot of dynamic versus planar spats. And I will stand beside my opinion. Some people don't like the way Audeze hands off the mids to the treble. That the lower treble is to splashy, Or that it sounds unnatural. A valid opinion, but one that I don't share. your chord/ Mapletree combo is just fine. Whatever headphones you end up getting, will likely sound great. If you've never heard a planar magnetic headphone, it will be an interesting experience for you if you go down that road. Hifiman is generally brighter, Mr Speakers as well, while Audeze is on the lush, warmer side.
     
  14. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    No, that wasn't my point- he already has a Mojo, and it's simply not good enough to be a desktop DAC, it's not particularly resolving and it's quite rolled off- it's ok in a pinch for mobile use, but even a much cheaper Modi Multibit slaughters it through a desktop amp. I haven't had a whole lot of time with iFi stuff, but what short time I had wasn't that exciting, run of the mill delta sigma stuff too.

    I just don't think it's worth dropping thousands on a weirdly-tuned Audeze headphones*, or uncomfortable and nasty-sounding Grados. Right now. The HD650s aren't being driven properly, and the choice of sources is underwhelming, even if they were. Transducers are the number one way to improve a chain normally, but in this case they're the main thing that probably doesn't need changing. Swapping them out will just increase the whackiness factor.



    * It's more the suckouts that bother me, I can easily adjust to a lot of warmth, given an hour or two of listening time. I seem to be weirdly flexible like that.
     
  15. Mithrandir41

    Mithrandir41 Friend

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    Funny that you say that about the "suckout" on the Audezes-i've always felt the same way about the 650. No matter how good of a rig I ran them on, the upper mids were always missing.and I have to mention the bass rolloff. I get that some people just love the sound of the 650, but I never did and never will. I liked it, but that was about it. For me, Audeze handles the mids better than the Senns. Different strokes -

    Russ
     
  16. loplop

    loplop Acquaintance

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    Gotcha, @Kattefjaes , I clearly didn't read that right. I was skimming while doing other stuff, my fault.

    I still think a new amp is his best path. A nice SS amp known to work well with the HD650 (and certainly could work well with other headphones, Audeze's included). I haven't heard the mojo, so I can't comment there, but I think the iDSD is a fine source that can serve well until you max your headphone & amp.

    This forum loves the HD650. I decided to get a pair for that reason. Lots of hate here for Audeze, but that doesn't bug me and I still like mine a lot... at least the LCD2 and LCDX. The 3 I'm struggling with, hence the thoughts above.
     
  17. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    Audeze tuning is absolute death to violins and similar, does weird things with the harmonics of other instruments. They certainly don't pass the Bruckner test*. I guess if you don't listen to orchestral stuff, it's less obvious, though.

    I like that you're struggling with yours, @loplop - I had a similar love/hate thing with HE-560. In the end, I decided they're fine with a bit of EQ, if I avoid demanding material as above. I still get enjoyment out of them, and thus didn't sell them. Yeah, they have tons of flaws, but I still like them for some reason. I probably wouldn't recommend them to others, though.

    Also, I would sell one of either the Mojo or iFi thingy, then put the money towards something like a Modi Multibit or Bifrost Multibit. Seems daft to have two mediocre portable DACs and no decent desktop units.

    (*blatantly stolen from @Muse Wanderer )
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2017
  18. chopstix

    chopstix Canali at HF (keeping him close)

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    thanks, guys...i appreciate your ops and imput.

    btw i am planning on selling the iFI micro idsd/mercury cable/ipurifier 2 due to it being a duplicate in many ways.
    will instead just use the mojo (for now) as a desktop dac/amp for focal alpha 50 powered speakers and my cans/iems.
    but i have no probs exploring schiit...can't beat that brand for trust and quality.
    my friend just got the wadia 122 http://www.wadia.com/en-us/products/di122

    my bud wants me to also explore USB streamers for sound enhancement, too, after i shared with him some ariticles (darko article below)
    to get either the auralic aries (or micro rendu/lps caps 1 power supply) for our desktop setups
    (ust when you thought a good DAC and set of cans was enough for USB audio, well no longer.
    more $$$
    http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/01/classy-sonores-microrendu-takes-digital-audio-higher/

    lastly crazy how cans are so divisive: love/hate for audeze...for the new focal elear...for grados even
    (despite many threads on headfi and other reviews)...guess much of it boils down to your own listening skillsets,
    exposure to many cans to make good comparative judgements, system synergy of components, one's own musical likes/dislikes per sound sig,..
    and perhaps most of all: budget
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2017
  19. loplop

    loplop Acquaintance

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    Bah, I don't agree*. I listen to a lot of classical, and I am fine with Audeze reproduction of strings. I'm no cellist88, and perhaps I'm deaf because I played trumpet, but I don't find myself thinking "oh my GAWD these Audezes are death to violins" when I'm listening. I find myself assessing the piece and performance of same, which is what I seek. I'm somewhat old and tired of listening to equipment.

    I personally believe that all reproduced music (with current and past technology) is a pale shadow of the real thing, and that it is really our brains re-assembling the reproduced sound that can (at times) allow you to "suspend disbelief" and forget the equipment. Just as men heard the first gramophone, tube radio, first LP, first stereophonic reproduction, etc and thought "this sounds like the REAL THING in my living room" we're fooling ourselves.

    *but then I'm not a Bruckner fan, so make of this what you will :)

    **EDIT: maybe one point in my favor: I don't like Grado's. They hurt
     
  20. TRex

    TRex Almost "Made"

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    Can't agree more. I auditioned all Audeze series except iSine at a local high-end audio shop. From Sine to LCD-3, bass reproduction is superb but mid-treble is just plain nasty. (Compared to HD6X0 & HD800) A bit shouty, insanely grainy/rough, very steep peaks resulting in off-timbre; and combined with fast transient of playnar the problem is more painful. Although HD800 is bright and has many treble peaks, the peaks isn't as steep (or tall) as Audezes.

    The only Audeze I'd listen was LCD-4 (was paired with Hugo TT, the shop was Chord dealer). Issues are still noticeable but tolerable (heavily damped). Soundstage is still small. And the price....
     

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