Beginner Vinyl Thread

Discussion in 'Music and Recordings (vinyl , 8-track, etc.)' started by velvetx, Apr 5, 2016.

  1. whoozwaqh

    whoozwaqh Rando

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    wow and flutter should only really be an issue with belt-drive turntables IIRC. If you get a direct drive table it should be significantly reduced or eliminated. Also, for newbies to vinyl, a straight tonearm is way easier to set up than a curved one.
     

  2. Mikoss

    Mikoss Friend

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    Another question which may be silly, but I'll ask anyway...

    Are 45rpm releases better than 33rpm releases of the same material? The thought process being that the 45 cut has more physical "space" for the information. I would assume it's coming from a master tape; the question is whether this translates into perceived higher quality.

    In my experience, I only own a couple of 45's and they sound very effing good. I would think they would also sound great as 33's, just wondering if it's all voodoo, or if it's worthwhile.
     
  3. Merrick

    Merrick Friend

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    In my experience, well mastered 45 RPM releases have better sound quality than a corresponding 33 1/3 RPM release. There are exceptions to that rule, but in general it's held true for me.

    However you get less songs per side with 45 RPM, and some people don't think the sound is that much better to warrant getting up and changing sides more often. I've got some amazing sounding 33 RPM records too, so it's not like 33 RPM sounds bad.
     
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  4. JoshMorr

    JoshMorr Friend

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    Yes - this is why they make 12" 45rpm records. Read this article below I just stole from the internet:

    Why 45 rpm? by Kevin Gray, AcousTech Mastering

    After 60 years the good ol’ analog LP is still one of the highest resolution sources of music distribution available. It has a solid, palpable, satisfying sound that no digital format has yet equaled, let alone surpassed. The most unfortunate thing about the LP is that it was really starting to flourish back in the mid 80s, just as the record companies tried to kill it.

    Advances in cutterheads (the device that etches the groove in the master lacquer disk) and cutting electronics reached a pinnacle in the early 80s. Digital computers arrived on the scene in their best role: Out of the audio chain, but doing machine-control to adjust the groove spacing on the record for maximum playing time and recorded volume. 180 gram virgin vinyl pressings were the next development, and last but not least, around the late 70s, 45 rpm 12” LPs started to appear.

    Why 45, you ask? Because it sounds better! In record mastering, the higher the recorded level and frequency, the greater the groove curvature. Curvature isn’t usually a problem, per se, on the outside of a 12” 33 1/3 record, but as the groove moves toward the center, its relative speed slows down and curvature increases. Yes, it is still turning at 33 1/3 revolutions per minute, but consider: one revolution takes 1.8 seconds. That 1.8 seconds at a 12” diameter is covering a lot more territory than at the minimum 4.75” diameter. The result is actually a loss in high frequencies, and increase in distortion as the groove moves to the center. The problems start when the curvature of the groove equals or exceeds the diameter of the playback stylus. What can be done about it? Many things have been tried, but there is no “magic bullet”. Keep the recorded volume to a reasonable level (read: On scale on the meters) is the first thing. Play the record back with an elliptical or line-contact stylus that has a smaller tip radius. And, if possible, make the record short enough to keep the music away from the very end of the disk. This isn’t always possible, of course.

    BUT, if we spin the disk at 45rpm we now have a 35% increase in groove velocity at any point on the disk. This is a huge advantage! Yes, the groove still slows down as it moves inward, but the effects are greatly reduced. The only problem is that the amount of recorded time is now also reduced by 35%. What do you do about that? (Hint: split up the LP into 4 sides on 2 records.) Now you’re cookin’ doc! Yep, twice the mastering cost, plating cost, pressing cost, label and jacket costs. It’s enough to make the bean-counters break down and cry. But the sound! Oooooh, yeah! This isn’t sales hype, it’s physics. Listen for yourself. You tell me if it’s worth it. A lot of music lovers think so…and they are right!
     
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  5. Merrick

    Merrick Friend

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    Usually you have to pay more for 12" 45 RPM records too, since they do have to put the material on more than one disc. Another reason some people opt for 33.

    I say, if you can afford to get any 45 RPM release that catches your fancy, great! Otherwise, just look for your all time favorite albums at 45 and get the rest on 33.

    The other reason price is usually an issue is because most 45 RPM releases are from boutique labels doing reissues, which means you're already paying a premium so the label can make back the licensing costs and so on. Sometimes bands will do a 45 RPM and 33 RPM release on the first run of a record, in which case the 45 RPM release is usually included in the inevitable deluxe edition that has more costly packaging and so on.
     
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  6. Marvey

    Marvey Loves sex and records

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    Another nice thing about 45s is they are much more immune to damage, or that damage to them isn't as audible as on 33s. I used to collect 45 singles (mostly all gone now) in the 80s. My friends and I used to call 45s "indestructible".
     
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  7. PoochZag

    PoochZag The Shadow knows - Friend

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    Do you mean damage done by a bad/heavy stylus, or damage due to scratches, age...etc (or is there a difference?)
     
  8. Ryu

    Ryu Friend

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    I just got this last Christmas as a gift and was wondering if there is any reason/path to upgrade. I am currently using it in conjunction with my decades old receiver and just as old Bose surround speakers. Another thing I was wondering about would be using the record player with my headphones. Would I be able to use my Magni 2 with this somehow? Thanks again in advance for all this great advice.
     
  9. spwath

    spwath Friend

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    To use with headphones you would need a preamp. If your receiver has one, you could use headphone out on receiver.
     
  10. PoochZag

    PoochZag The Shadow knows - Friend

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    That turntable has a built in pre-amp, so you could plug those RCA's straight into a Magni 2. There's a little switch on the back to turn it on and off, but if you're going into an AUX into your receiver instead of a PHONO you probably already have it on.

    I have/had an LP60, but never really used it with my "audiophile rig", so I'm not really qualified to speak to any potential upgrade paths (but considering it's an automatic, with no adjustable stylus force, without a standard cart mount, putting money into it probably wouldn't make any sense)
     
  11. spwath

    spwath Friend

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    Better place than the switch on my turntable. Under the platter, so you have to take it off, and try to get the drive belt back on when putting it back togeter.
     
  12. Merrick

    Merrick Friend

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    The only path to upgrade with that table is to buy a new table.
     
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  13. Ryu

    Ryu Friend

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    Spent some time looking around for some new tables. Found this nice looking guy. Is this something that I should be investing in or can someone make a better recommendation.
     
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  14. Merrick

    Merrick Friend

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    Go with that one, get the plus upgrade version. Then get a Jotunheim with phono stage to go with it. ;)
     
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  15. Pyruvate

    Pyruvate Friend

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    I have one of those. Great bang for the buck! Figured that I'm better off getting a solid budget table, amass a good vinyl collection, and then really take the plunge one day and getting a VPI. If you have any questions, let me know!

    *the orbit is one of the best budget tables out there right now (assuming you don't want to dabble with the used vintage market, which entails more risk). However, Fluance did recently released a pair of TTs (RT81 etc) which may offer the same level of performance at a lower cost. I haven't read many comparisons between the orbit and the Fluance, but in the end, I'm happy I chose the Orbit because their customer service is top notch (rivaling that of Schiit's, which says a lot). Ben (one of the guys behind UTurn) was really patient and helpful when I noticed a slight channel imbalance. Be sure to buy directly because the first table I got from their amazon vendor was old stock (hence the channel issues), though they were awesome enough to replace my table free of cost. The new one works like charm! One more thing is that they're going to release solid wood tables soon, so if you can wait a couple months, you could possibly get one of those.

    **also did I mention how big of an enabler @Merrick is? He gave me the final push in getting into vinyl. And now he's making me want the Joti real real bad.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2016
  16. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

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  17. pedalhead

    pedalhead Friend

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    Would anybody care to share their thoughts on at what point a TT system becomes competitive with a decent digital system? Clearly this is humongously subjective, but still I'd be interested to hear some thoughts.

    Reason for asking...I've got a small (50 ish) collection of vinyl, but currently no turntable, and I quite fancy getting one again. I did own a Rega P3 with Cambridge Audio phono a few years back but my fairly modest digital system at the time simply sounded a lot better to my ears (CI Audio VDA2 DAC). Probably didn't help that I was using a HD800 (just released, no mods). In fairness to the Rega, I just plonked it on a shelf and expected it to work some magic (which it didn't).

    I wouldn't be fussed if the TT was going into my speaker system as that's far from GUTB-fi, but it'll be mostly in my rather revealing headphone rig (Metrum Hex / Jotenheim + Wells Enigma / HE1000) and frankly I don't want to bother if it's going to sound thin & shitty like the Rega did.

    Obviously I'll be demoing some stuff, but I really have no clue where I need to pitch things to stand a realistic chance of not being disappointed. Cheers.
     
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  18. JoshMorr

    JoshMorr Friend

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    This is a very personal experience and results will vary - but my Project Debut Carbon was neck and neck with my Gumby and eventually won out after upgrading cart, pre and other mods. That table was the espirit sb version - so about $600 new.

    I'm not as familiar with the rega's but would expect similar price points to correlate. Start with something basic - upgrade - learn how to tweak - make sure you actually enjoy vinyl process, then look for upgrade.

    Several people here thought vinyl was for them, but for various reasons it wasn't. Glad they didn't spend too much before realizing.
     
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  19. pedalhead

    pedalhead Friend

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    Thanks mate, I appreciate the input. I guess a follow-on question would be...what's the cleverest ratio of funds for TT / cart / phono preamp? I'm guessing it's a case of get the best TT you can afford and go from there...?
     
  20. JoshMorr

    JoshMorr Friend

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    Funny you ask - I asked a similar question in March (see link below):
    http://www.superbestaudiofriends.or...location-and-when-to-upgrade-components.1517/

    This is also a pretty useful thread where similari topics have been touched upon:
    http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/budget-vinyl-rigs.1462/

    To answer more directly, a good place to start may be budget - uturn audio is well liked, I liked the project, other like music hall, rega etc. I think if you buy a table that comes with a cart, you can listen for a while, get a hold of the stock sound, and then upgrade. Being able to hear what upgrades to in analog systems is important. With the Ortofon 2M series carts, the Red & Blue share the same body, so you only need a stylus upgrade (cheap and easy to do). Pre is a matter up for more discussion, alot of people here have taken a cheap $50 TC-750 phono pre and modded it. There aren't a lot of inexpensive good options out there. Schiit Mani is liked by some, not by others. Marv recently commented that the pre in the Jotunhype is pretty solid. There are lots of others under $200 options that will do well and get you by, "good" pre's seem to start in the $400 - $500 range.

    Hope this helps even if it isn't too straight forward of advice!
     
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