Bill's HD800 mod thread (final version)

Discussion in 'Modifications and Tweaks' started by Bill-P, Sep 27, 2015.

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  1. SKiring

    SKiring Friend

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    @Besnia, Cork Rabid Anax 2.0 (or something): http://imgur.com/a/hSS57.

    Materials used:
    Pressed cork 2mm
    Creatology Foam 2mm (fresh out of open cell, might redo this when I can get some open cell or remove it altogether and just go for cork to see how that holds up)
    Rug Liner
    Double sided sticky tape sheets.

    In a nutshell this is Tyll's basic model mod for the foam and for the cork round shape. Then the Rabid Dog cut out for the rug liner.

    I'm still adjusting, it's much, much more damped, soundstage is smaller (not as much as I thought), but the bass response is incredible! This has mellowed out the treble but also elevated bass response, mids are more forward as well, meatier if you will.

    But overall this has literally killed the treble peak and it's not resonating on the mesh. It's very interesting, I have to have it up for a few days to see if I want to go back to just open cell foam again or not. I wish I had a measuring rig right now haha. I must say there's a bit musicality on my rig already and it seems to be more prominent now, so there's a definitive win there!
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2015
  2. Besnia

    Besnia Facebook Friend

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    That's what I'm hearing too :) I've tried a somewhat similar, but thinner rug liner. You already have a very precise measuring rig - your ears. If you hear improved clarity, in a way that pleases you, then you've already made an improvement.
     
  3. johnjen

    johnjen Doesn’t want to be here but keeps posting anyways

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    I concur, again.

    And as we get our sense of hearing 'calibrated' by hearing better and better SQ due to improvements or just exposure (during a meet for example, or as a result of tweaking etc.) our ability to distinguish finer and finer details becomes more honed and focused.
    This idea of 'better' is a form of motivation, which after a while tends to 'feed' upon itself, as new experiments come to mind.

    JJ
     
  4. Works 4 Me

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  5. Works 4 Me

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    John, That's pretty interestiing that you mention your focus is on vibration control rather then dampening . In effect when you damp something you've decided that you may partially think that "dumbing down" whatever it is that is bothering you will sufficiently correct the "problem".

    My Equitech line conditioning has been an incredible "Tool" in being able to tell me what is valid musical information & what is not. I think it may be more difficult to make corrections to any component if you aren't able to recognize what is causing it to originate. It may come down to whether "adjusting" what exists by adding something will be sufficient. That I could hear that characteristics that didn't appear to be naturally musical told me what was adjustible or might be more beneficial removed.

    (we've talked before on that other website ; glad to see you on this thread)
     
  6. Works 4 Me

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    I think you're moving in the right direction when you start to think that the "soundstage" that you're hearing is smaller. It's not,

    In reality what you were perceiving to be completely soundstage information was manipulated through "electro-mechanical" means to give you the impression of that huge space. Someone at Sennheiser came to the realization that if you mechanically implement some type of device to to draw your attention away from the inner details of the music (& as a result your depth perception) the ear can't help but notice the width of the music, & your perception of this is amplified. There are whole Genres of music where there is little to no natural soundstage information readily present, so if you go "overboard" in whatever you've implemented very few people will raise a flag as to what was done (you may even like this "effect" , if your favorite music Genres aren't normally this "detailed" sounding)

    I'm not too sure what people are talking about when they talk about "resonating on the mesh", unless it is the mesh of the protective screen as being the culprit of where the resonating is developing. The ring - driver - screen "sandwich" is responsible for most of reason people get the impression that the HD800 are "bright" sounding as they work in conjunction w/ each other to create that "wall of sound" effect. The rings are the "ports" for the additional resonance . I'm not quite sure why once you interrupted all the excessive resonance that the lower frequency response seems to tremendously "pop" into place (unless the "Ring Radiators" are somehow redirecting the energy to these frequencies before they can develop.)

    One thing I have noticed is that I am hearing much further into the music I listen to at a reduced volume then I was before Mods were done to the point where these are much different sounding headphones. Needless to say "I really likes 'em" & have no clue as to how anyone could like them "Sennheiser Style".
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2015
  7. johnjen

    johnjen Doesn’t want to be here but keeps posting anyways

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    Say there W4M…
    The idea of vibration control vs. dampening came out as a result of analyzing the measurements made from my headphones.
    And dampening will come next IF it is warranted, well except for the trapazoid…

    I noticed certain responses to the testing procedure that painted a picture of resonance 'artifacts' that weren't in the original measurements.
    Of course this idea of vibration control needed some 'experimentation' to see if it would prove to be useful.

    And thus far the results are promising.
    But I need more time spent on variations to figure how much vibration control or how little is 'best'.

    Still, right now I'm running without any dampening in the ear cavities, except for the trapazoid which is going thru several variations as well.
    But the major point of focus I'm working on, is the 'system' of how the driver is secured.

    Like I said it sounds promising…

    JJ
     
  8. SKiring

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    Ah one thing to keep in mind, I'm comparing the soundstage to my previous Open Cell foam double trapezoid with the same rug liner mod. As in the cork seems to dampen the sound further, which makes the perceived soundstage seem slightly smaller (given that I expected it to be even smaller). Not in comparison to stock, as you mention yourself I too prefer the new "more poppy sound" to the "brighter than it needs to be Senn HD800 house sound".

    Now a few days in I'm really enjoying this new Cork style mod. I find it hard to describe it without resorting to more floaty words like "musical", but that's really what I'm hearing.
    My main problem lies in wonder at the moment, would leaving the foam out entirely make it better (or worse)? Maybe open cell instead of creatology foam below the cork could be even better... Maybe double cork and even cork as the trapezoid...
    I needed to buy in bulk, so I still have about 39 sheets of foam, 20 sheets of felt, 4 50x50 (cm) pressed cork sheets and enough double sided sticky tape to cover a room, so there's plenty of room to play around with different things. And I'm definitely getting some microfiber cloth and open cell foam. Will report back if I change it up and it sounds better. I mean it's not like I'm unsatisfied atm...
    :punk:|\/|
     
  9. Works 4 Me

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    Alright..... So I have to ask , because I've posed some of the same questions to myself during the various "incarnations" of my Mods. (with the same impressions of "serious musicality" spurning me forward. Are you daring enough to attempt to remove the protective screens ?

    The reason I ask is due to the fact that most of what we do to cover up those rings is being made necessary by what's going on behind those rings. I was pretty amazed at how any thoughts that these headphones were bright became a distant memory( after removing the screens)Talk about opening a window...

    I have to be honest though & say that if you prefer the music you listen to , to have a bit of "edge" to it , you may think the sound is a bit "flat" sounding. It honestly isn't , but due to the fact I don't care for non - Acoustic music , I generally am unable to hear distinct musical transients in "Electrically" based music genres.

    Getting back to how I think these headphones "work", I too sometimes wonder if the Anax Mod shelf liner I have inside the earcups is necessary . I think that a bit of sound "diffraction" is a good thing as it helps keeping the development of frequencies "honest" & as a result the transients of notes aren't being masked. The continuosness of certain frequencies over others are what causes these to sound bright.

    I've spoken way too long. I'll just say if you've found any interest here just leave your comments here, & I'll find them. (& hopefully not bore anyone to tears) (One more thing : Happy Thanksgiving to all)
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2015
  10. SKiring

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    Actually I really value the feedback, nothing boring at all man, aren't we here because of the love for the hobby/the sound you seek and how to get the most out of your cans? :)

    Dust cover removal, without batting an eye, protective screen removal is something I would only attempt if I have a proper, price matched, backup funding to replace my can if it doesn't work or if I don't like that specific tonal balance. Taking ownership of a can by doing reversible mods is one thing, going for irreversible: I'll need a backup HD800 to justify, it's not even being scared to do it, but I'd find it a damn shame that if it's not what I want, that I essentially "broke" a sound that I'm absolutely loving at the moment.
    I listen to about any form of music from jazz and blues, top 80's and 90's pop, to EDM, hiphop, R&B, Soul from pure electronics to pure acoustics. Honestly it's more rare for me to dislike an entire genre. I'd easily listen to any genre music, just too see if an artist is good. I can also tolerate lesser recordings, even on my HD800 (given that I'm getting a HD650 at the end of the week as a laid back counter and better match for those recordings). So that edge is something I actually really enjoy.

    Happy thanksgiving as well from the Netherlands, I will update if I have any different level modifications to share with the cork based variant mod. I can however endorse it to anyone, it does really work wonders to my ears.
     
  11. Works 4 Me

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    Thanks for letting me bend your ear a bit.

    I have some pretty good news for you , if it's fear of "bricking" your HD800 that is stopping you dead in your tracks from attempting this. It really is much less difficult to accomplish this removal than most would think that it is. If you're technically proficient enough to patiently use a micro sized screwdriver, there is very little risk of the feared "bricking" that I've mentioned.

    Being a holiday , & I will be out the door shortly to share Thankgiving with family members (who don't modify electronic devices, but are able to cook very tasty holiday meals , & invite Uncle Steve over ). I can point you toward some more details as to how you needn't let your hesitance stop you expanding your Modding skills. It comes down to understanding what your going to be dealing with at each step & being prepared to be relaxed enough to work through each step (seriously , you don't need to be a rocket scientist to remove what a group of "wanted to be Rocket Scientists" insensitively decided to put on these headphones.

    It's completely your call though should you decide not to try this. Just let the possibility "mentally percolate"awhile before dismissing it . You know where to come back to for further info.
     
  12. johnjen

    johnjen Doesn’t want to be here but keeps posting anyways

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    So a 'progress' report on my efforts to tailor my 800's more towards my liking.
    I have been using the sonarworks EQ and adding sub-sonic boost below 20 Hz as well.
    And when using the Ref-3 s/w I always was fussing with the bass boost and tilt controls and usually the wet/dry ratio as well.
    And adding 6-9dB at 10 or 15Hz with varying Q settings…

    Now I'm running at 100% wet/dry and flat (no added emphasis) with only a 3dB boost at 15Hz and I'm ticking off all the check marks of my tests for being 'Better'.

    I think I've hit a lick.
    I still need more time to evaluate more music, but I'm hearing stuff I've never heard before, and on music I'm Very familiar with.
    I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop and it just turns into T3 (ToeTappingTime) not to mention HB&W (Head Bobbing and Weaving).
    And I'm looking around the room as audible cues 'seem' to be coming from behind and off in the room somewhere.

    I can't say if this is 'fully tweaked' or not, but I'm going to leave it in this configuration for a while and finish my evaluation.
    I almost don't want to believe what I'm hearing, except I keep getting sucked into the music…
    Or as I described it, it's the superglue mod, my 800's seem to be stuck to my head…:)

    And once I am 'satisfied' with what the sonic signature is, I hope to be able to get them tested again.
    This will give me a 'before', 'during', and 'after' set of measurements to judge how well my assumptions on vibration control and my particular 'solution' is in terms of effectiveness.

    Exciting times in Audio indeed.

    JJ
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2015
  13. Works 4 Me

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    JJ,
    I''m guessing that instead of using JRMC to apply some EQ you're now using Sonarworks ? Is there any way to use Sonarworks in a "Library Mode" like it's possible to use the JRMC tools to apply things to the music files (as I'm using an Auraliti PK100 DFP & not my computer as my player) ?

    (Applying that 8db "goose" at 18hz to my entire music library added a goodly amt of instrumental "texture" & "dimensionality" to even recordings that didn't appear to contain these qualities. The recordings that already had these characteristics border on the Sublime in many cases.) (I'm still scratching my head over how well this worked)
     
  14. johnjen

    johnjen Doesn’t want to be here but keeps posting anyways

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    Actually I'm using both the Ref 3 plug in and a parametric EQ inside the DSP in JRiver at the same time.
    The sub-sonic EQ boost from the parametric is setup to blend in with the Ref-3 EQ for a 'seemless' bottom end emphasis.
    And I have found that many, many recordings actually do contain the extreme bottom end content and it can be quite surprising when you 'discover' it for the first time.

    As for the 'library mode' usability…
    If your "player" has DSP and you can load the Ref-3 plug-in into it, then it can run and do its thing.
    As in, you don't necessarily need JRiver, but you do need to have the DSP function in the player you are using in order to load and use the Ref-3 s/w.

    JJ
     
  15. Works 4 Me

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    Nope, I'd have to hack the player's software ,as it will only input digital files from USB drives & output the Digital stream via a BNC cable to my Metrum DAC or play the stream though the internal DAC ( then output the Analog of this; the internal DAC is only slightly better than the Bifrost)

    No sweat, I think my system has quite a way to go before the HD800 will be able to outdistance what playback it's capable of. ( & the HD800 is seriously nice sounding at this point) Thanks for the quick response !

    Steve
     
  16. TomNC

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    Bill-P has kindly performed his new mod on my HD800. Following several days of listening to the modified HD800, and my regrilled HE6 for comparison, here I report some initial impressions.


    Prior to the mod, I enjoyed the stock HD800 with most of my music tracks, except some pop/rock CDs, an example of which is a CD by a Hong Kong band called Beyond. I love their songs and listen to the CD often with HD650 and HE6 without discomfort. With the stock HD800, however, the recordings of this band, especially those metal-sounding percussions, is simply too piercing. Among the three major phones I have and use often, I rate the brightness of trebles in the order of HD800 > HE6 > HD650 with the HE6 is about right to my taste. If the treble problems can be somehow fixed, the HD800, with its superiorly detailed, spacious and fast sound, would be my top headphone by a clear margin.


    Now I would say Bill-P’s mod mostly fixes the problems with mid-high and high frequencies. The torturous piercing effects with transient sounds are almost gone. It is an interesting sensation. I still hear those bright, sharp sounds which have bites but somehow they lose the ability to inflict physical pain. It is as if I was aware of the needle and knife operation on me during a surgery but I could not feel the pain because of local anesthesia. The primary goal of the mod is achieved.


    The mod engenders another major effect on overall sound signature. After listening to many tracks in multiple genres, I believe the mod adds a significant amount, not just a touch, of warmth to the sound. For many other phones, the warmth is often associated with slowness and reduced transparency, and in some cases, even muddiness. But the HD800 is by no means an average phone. With its capability of detailed, fast sound production intact following the mod, the HD800 still delivers crisp, highly dynamic sounds. There is more presence of clear transient sounds with the modded HD800 than my HE6, let alone the HD650. As to the latter, while I enjoy its pleasant, well balanced tonality, its slowness and somewhat excessive smoothness often leads to boredom after a couple hours of listening. Now the mod gives the sound of HD800 a significant presence of warmth, euphoria, and impact while keeping the clarity and speed mostly unaffected. To my ears, the HD800 with this mod is one step close to the dream “HD850”, closer than the HD650 with the marv/bill-p mod.


    On the other hand, I feel that although the increase in warmth is welcome, it may be overdone to some degree. I can hear this warm coloration with most tracks I have tried. Now having the back of the HD800 cups covered with my hands produces very small differences in the sound, suggesting that the damping may be on the excessive side with air flow severely restricted with this mod. I would vote on pulling back somewhat in this respect. Perhaps this can be done by using liner with larger openings and/or having some areas of the cup uncovered. I hope Bill-P can come up with a lighter version of the current mod.


    How about the impact of the mod on soundstage and imaging precision? This is a tricky question which definitely needs to answer by side-by-side comparing the mod vs stock HD800. I do not have access to a stock HD800 and I don’t want to dissemble and reassemble of the mod just for the comparison. I like the mod and fear I may not be able to put things back once I dissemble it.


    I think the added warmth affects the sense of spaciousness of the sound. Warm sounds are perceived as thicker and occupying larger spaces and thereby making the overall space seem crowded and smaller. Since the warmth is mostly in the mid frequencies, the mids can sound more forward. Spacious sounding headphones in general sound bright and relatively thin. For example, the old Sony CD-3000 I used to own sounds bright, thin and spacious. The sound of HD800 is also bright spacious, relatively thin. While I had a Little Dot Mkiii amp, I learned that some warm-sounding Mullard, driver tubes dramatically alter the perception of sound space, which can be described as a zoom-in effect as if I was sitting in the first row of a wide screen movie theater. With the HD800 mod, I feel there is something similar, but on a smaller scale, happening. The sounds at the center stage move forward with emphasized, even exaggerated, clarity; those at the distal areas are rendered, or perceived to be fainter, though still very detailed if I pay special attention to them. Still, the modded HD800 produces overall spacious sound and with excellent imaging precision. In terms of the lateral and top-bottom dimensions of the soundstage, I feel the modded HD800 is at least as good as the HE6. But for the front-back direction, I no longer perceive the HD800 is better. Overall, I feel the increased warmth and/or the significant damping inside the chamber with the mod may, in one way or another, affect the spaciousness of the sound. One has to do a side-by-side comparison with the stock HD800 to discern exactly what and how much is changed in this respect.


    In short, Bill-P’s HD800 mod effectively diminishes the problematic mid-highs and highs. Equally, if not more, important to me, it adds warmth, presence, and weight to the sound, mainly in the mids, altering the sound signature to a significant degree. As to the impact on the sense of spaciousness of the sound, it may create a closed-in effect on soundstage. This mod is not for every user, especially for those who primarily listen to large orchestra works which suit the neutral (on the bright side), detailed, and spacious sound of the stock HD800(S). However, for people who wish to have a moderately warm, still detailed and fast sound, the mod may be appreciated. In this respect, the mod, perhaps a lighter version of it, may remain relevant for the new HD800S.


    I have to add that Gungnir Multibit, the DAC I am using, may contribute to some extent to the warmth I perceive. I’ll see if my perception may change when I switch to a AURALiC Vega in several days. I am also using an old Rotel 1603 as the headphone amp, which has plenty dynamic range but may not be up to today’s standards in terms of resolution and imaging precision. Additionally, the mod may affect bass but I hardly notice this as the receiver can readily compensate for some lack of bass with many phones.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2015
  17. SKiring

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    Alright so new iteration of my mods, cork + dynamat on the trapezoid (dynamat on top, cork on top didn't work for me), foam + cork on the ring and the rugliner just covering the parts. It's a bit more shouty, but overall I'm really digging it.

    Now as to why I've quoted you, side the fact that I want to get my hands on some Dynaliner to further play with this concept and see to get Bill's bath mat, I'm also contemplating playing with removing the protective screen. Do give me some ideas, is it just unscrewing the metal ring? Side the sonic response, is it easily reversible? This is the one thing that I really want to be careful with haha, you can imagine it's not as easy.
     
  18. Works 4 Me

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    No worries, It couldn't be easier to put the screen (or as I like to call it "the reverb spring") back in place !

    All you need to do is remove the 4 screws holding the rings down . They screw into posts from silver ring holding the screens to the headphones baskets . Once you remove the screws the silver rings just drop off & the screens will just slide out.

    The only problem you might have is finding the right size star bit to fit the screw heads . Don't make yourself crazy looking for the right driver & just get the miniture driver set at Radio Shack, the size you need is in it !

    (I can't imagine why anyone would ever want to put the screens back in place ,once they've heard the HD800 without them ; Then again many people think the stock HD800 go beyond being almost listenable . Popular music must be more poorly recorded then I remember it to be !)
     
  19. SKiring

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    Good stuff @Works 4 Me, that's very helpful. I'm rounding up more material to get more conclusive in my tests with regular mods and will try that on top of it. Who knows it might stop my search right here and now.
     
  20. johnjen

    johnjen Doesn’t want to be here but keeps posting anyways

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    It's a #6 torx bit for the 4 screws that hold the clamp ring and a #8 torx bit for the 2 screws that attach the ear cup to the head band pivot arm.

    JJ
     

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