BS Cavalli LL Concerns

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by Rotijon, Oct 24, 2015.

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  1. Altrunox

    Altrunox Friend

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    Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees!
     
  2. Asgeir101

    Asgeir101 New

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    Hi all,

    I just bought a Liquid Crimson at the RMAF special (sight unseen/heard) and was a bit concerned with this thread. However it seems to originate from a discussion from 2012 and there is a mention that he improved the workmanship/ design of his amps since then.

    Does anybody have any "real" (I.e.) owner/loaner experience with the Liquid Crimson and can comment on that amp specifically?

    And let's leave money out of it ;) I have already spent mine :)
     
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
  4. velvetx

    velvetx Gear Master West/Vendor Spotlight Moderator

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    You should have no concern. Money well spent grats on the purchase.
     
  5. Asgeir101

    Asgeir101 New

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    Thanks Purrin and Veletx

    I guess I will be on the hunt for a telefunken 6922 :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
  6. Rotijon

    Rotijon Friend

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    Just a quick note on the T2DIY, that amp is famous for how temperamental it is, its a chore to both get it to run and maintain. Quite similar to the upcoming circlotron KGSSHV Carbon.

    If im not mistaken, Sptritzer still has not completed his T2 due to various issues and is unlikely to start on the circlotron, the latter due to how dangerous that amp is.

    The issues with the T2DIY are quite well documented in the T2 thread, it just happens to be a couple hundred pages long.

    Well, i am quite curious to test out the Cavalli amps. However, that does not change the fact that i still hold a certain distaste for the cavalli brand, for letting top dollar amps that were clearly not properly finished to leave the shop. Im not going to enter the part where sub-standard parts (for a 5k amp) was used, as i dont have the BOM, i only see a really cheap and thin board there.

    OJNeg & Ultrabike, you guys are right in the thread being overly vitriolic at one point with many of the stax mafia being carried away. Having said that, the gist of the message still remains.

    Altrunox, thanks for that link, i was looking for the picture of tha 8k POS Woo Wes. Just look at those internals. In what world is that 8k.

    Muppetface, naturally, considering how slow and dark the LL is, it should make a good pairing with the 009 if you found it too bright.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Absolutely nothing wrong with thinking that. I think people who are interested in his amps but concerned about them should talk to or e-mail Alex. And for the record: yes, some of us thought the board-work was disappointing given that the LL was priced a a premium product.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
  8. velvetx

    velvetx Gear Master West/Vendor Spotlight Moderator

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    Haha be prepared to give up a small pile of cash for those matched pairs because they aren't cheap but they do sound great.
     
  9. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    I don't have the Liquid Crimson yet, middle of next week maybe. But I didn't have any concerns laying out the cash for it. I've heard / seen the Liqiuid Fire which, had it been available, I would have acquired one of those. Any negativity expressed appears to be unwarranted, at least from my limited recent experience. And you can bet both LCs arriving will receive a thorough listening / measurement evaluation. BTW, @purrin are my measurements sanctioned or unsanctioned? My apologies if I put the Schiit DAC measurements in the incorrect group.
     
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    All of your measurements are sanctioned.
     
  11. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Yes. Perhaps the LL pricing was a bit too much. And perhaps the BOM, PCB, workmanship, or whatever didn't justify it. I liked how it sounded with the 009s, but I never liked the price.

    Actually, Spritzer's Mjolnir site has some relatively well priced items (though still out of my range):

    http://www.mjolnir-audio.com/products/

    I don't know about the reliability of his products and I've never heard one. But it seems that if things go south, people get taken care off. I remember MH had some issues for whatever reasons, but I think he is now in good shape.

    If you look at most electrostatic products (including headphones), I don't see kilo-buck parts justification in any of them. My best guess is that they are expensive because they are not available in volume. So, trying to bring down almost any of these products based on parts is easy. But IMO not fair.
     
  12. Xen

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    [​IMG]
     
  13. Meh

    Meh Friend

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    I owned a Liquid Crimson (sold it recently to raise money). It was a great amp.
     
  14. n3rdling

    n3rdling Friend

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    I agree this stuff is beaten to death, but looking back now is at least pretty interesting and I think may be a good example of why some of us usually defend KG/spritzer.

    For somebody new to the hobby you may think they're just assholes only interested in trashing various amp makers without understanding the context for why they do it. Sure ego could definitely be a part of it, but as Rotijon correctly pointed out they've sang praises for plenty of other companies as well. I don't think most of you know that some of the stuff they bring up, such as amps that blew up, actually DID happen. They've been around for a long time (headwize days), so they've heard all the horror stories and have seen all kinds of unsafe or poor designs.


    A rundown of some of the major manufacturers they've targeted over the years:

    Ray Samuels Audio - They trashed almost all of his amps for various design reasons. They showed people that Ray was essentially selling them the same portable amp over and over for escalating prices. They called out the Darkstar for being an overpriced gainclone. They explained why the A-10 is such a bad sounding amp (SRPP, which is consistent with what they said about SRPP/stats before the A-10 was even made). They pointed out that Ray's special connector for his balanced portable amp was a dumb idea. Ray was the king of headphone amps for years. The tides started to turn during the Predator vs Pico era, when they showed how much more poorly the Predator measured, and HeadAmp started to gain market share. Now RSA is basically gone. Was that a bad thing for the consumer? We got a company that just about everybody will agree makes amps that sound better, have better craftsmanship, have way better parts, are safer, and are a little cheaper.

    SinglePower - For those who don't know, Mikhail used to make very very expensive HP amps. Like, $10k-25k expensive. He was a crazy dude with crazy ideas. Some of his parts were super overkill, and he had pretty original ideas, but his build quality standards were very unsafe. His amps have blown up (which is what made that SWAT video even more funny) and they also had a high failure rate. Some of his amps had special custom chassis that the average person would be unable to open (I think they had some special screws or were epoxied shut), and in one case somebody was able to open up his newly arrived "battery PSU upgraded" amp and found a wallwart inside. This kind of thing was typical of Mikhail, and KG/spritzer slammed him at every turn. They pointed out all the safety issues with his amps (and there were tons of them) and routinely posted pictures of his poor build quality. He ended up disappearing into the night with people's money. Was that (the KG/spritzer thing, not the money stealing) a bad thing for the consumer? Back then people didn't really look inside their amps or post pictures of internals, now it's much more commonplace because it's more in demand. A company would never get away with sticking a wall wart in a $12k amp now. When it seemed like Alex was intentionally not posting internal pictures it brought back memories of the SP fiasco, but if you weren't around back then you probably had a hard time understanding why this was an issue for many people. Again, the context thing I was talking about.

    Rudistor - Rudistor had a larger HF presence before but KG/spritzer ragged on his circuits constantly and he's rarely brought up there anymore. His amps are probably the worst measuring solid state you'll ever see by far. Know where he gets most of his business? Asia, and Europe to a lesser extent. I don't think it's a coincidence that places with their own HF but without KG/spritzer are under his spell while we never hear about him. Was that a bad thing for the consumer? Honestly, your iPod sounds better and isn't $4k.

    Cavalli - Most of it has been covered a million times already. I don't think his early amps (LF/LLmk1) warranted their price tag in either performance or build quality. I haven't had enough experience with his more recent stuff to comment on their SQ, but the build quality is way better now. They actually look expensive. Whether people here want to admit it or not, things like lacking a locking nut on a grounding screw and a lack of current limiting in a stat amp are real safety issues. Was this a good thing for the consumer? Heck, it was probably a good thing for Alex in the long run. He survived it and I bet you none of those safety issues exist anymore. His amps look way better. All credit to him. I do wish he put internal pictures of his amps up on his site though. It should be a source of pride I think, rather than being overly concerned about somebody knowing your schematic a couple months before he'll eventually see it firsthand anyways.


    When KG/spritzer critique something, they give their reasons. Some of it can be kinda witchhunty, but they're some of the best in the community about backing up what they say with logic and facts. Keep in mind all of these companies listed above had people defending them from KG/spritzer, and almost exclusively by friends. I know many here are friends with Alex so it hurts to see the mud slinging, but at least it's consistent and with a documented history.

    You may not like them, but they're two extremely helpful people. All those amps with their noted issues above? Those two have fixed the issues for many members over the years, always free of charge or at parts cost. If your amp is broken or you can't get your DIY amp working, shoot Kevin an email and he's always willing to help. It doesn't even have to be one of his designs. Then there are the hundreds of people they've helped with Stax, etc over the years.

    I'm glad we have a KG/spritzer in the audio community because they serve a vital purpose. This hobby already has way too much garbage and BS being peddled, as well as too much censorship, so if a couple members with highly regarded opinions have to be nasty when pointing out turds, that's a net win for the consumer in the long run. Sometimes it can seem like they're being unfair, but if you've been around long enough you'll see why.

    Grenades? :p
     
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  15. Rotijon

    Rotijon Friend

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    All the good reviews on these are making me quite curious. I dont see it on the site though. Is it discontinued?
     
  16. Asgeir101

    Asgeir101 New

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    Hi Rotijon,

    Alex produces in batches and sold out his current stock of the Liquid Crimson during the RMAF special. From what I have heard he is focused on the liquid Carbon/liquid portable well into next year. You might still be able to pick one up through MrSpeakers, but likely at the full retail price.

    In terms of if they Become available again I think only Alex knows that. An alternative could be the Liquid Carbon which will start to ship in two weeks. I believe it is covered in another thread on this site
     
  17. Asgeir101

    Asgeir101 New

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    Hi Atomicbob,

    Did you receive your liquid crimson? Mine arrived today. When can we hope for measurements :)
     
  18. beemerphile

    beemerphile Friend

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    I am glad that I only heard the Cavalli-bashing after I had already purchased a used Liquid Glass. I truly love the amp but probably would have passed on it given all the vitriol. Maybe the bashing is what allowed me to get in about a grand under the new selling price. I'll take breaks where I can get them, but I would tell anyone that the Cavalli LG is a fine piece of gear.
     
  19. thegunner100

    thegunner100 Hentai Master Chief

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    What are people on about with Cavalli now? Still the shipping delays?
     
  20. M3NTAL

    M3NTAL Friend

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    H-Fi cross post necro thread bump.

    Two questions:

    1.) I know certain forums poo-poo'd on the eXStatA design and essentially the Liquid Lightning II. Were there any special notes/upgrades/tweaks that addressed concerns or improvements in general. I have an early/standard hybrid build biased around 580v IIRC - for Koss ES-P950

    2.) Anyone able to share a manual?
     
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