Dacs/Improvement

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by Bluemeanies, Aug 31, 2017.

  1. Bluemeanies

    Bluemeanies New

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    Need advice before I do anything that would be a waste of finances. It involves my 2channel system. Specifically about my GRACE DESIGN m920 preamp, dac which uses a SABRE CHIP.
    I love the unit, bought new at a great price from Massdrop about a year and a half ago.
    Here is my question...I have been on the Schiit website and looking at two dacs which have other than SABRE chips. I have read where Burr-Brown are the tops.
    I need guidance. My thoughts are to keep my GRACE and invest in a different not necessarily better dac that can be connected to the GRACE giving options to listening to both dacs if I so desired.
    Reading about the SCHIIT they offer the multibit upgrade which I would be willing to step up to.
    The dacs I am interested in are the BIFROST and GUNGNIR.

    Thank you in advance,
    Bluemeanies
     
  2. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    First, please don't focus too much on the specific chipset used. The analog circuitry surrounding the chip, digital filters used, I/V stage, output stage, power supply, quality of passive components such as resistors and caps etc. all matter as much if not more. In other words, implementation is key.

    The Grace unit is really quite good, one of the better ESS9018 implementations on the market for sure. Given that and the rest of your system it's really hard to say if the Gungnir Multibit would even be worth buying, it would certainly be better in some areas but worse in others. If you are looking for better than the Grace, forget about the Bifrost entirely.

    Give a budget for your upgrade and then you can be pointed towards something else.
     
  3. Stapsy

    Stapsy Friend

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    The first thing you need to do when trying to determine any upgrade is to figure out what you are trying to improve. Listing your equipment isn't very helpful. Describing your preferences and knowing what aspect of sound you want to improve is the most important part and will help us to give you better advice.

    What is it a about your current setup that you would like to change?
     
  4. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Hard to say because no one here can predict what you will like. Current Burr-Brown (which is really TI) sucks balls - dull and boring. Semi-vintage BB PCM1704 is the polar opposite of Sabre - overly polite and forgiving. I hate almost all Sabre including the m920. Headache inducing unnatural high end and ill-defined shitty bass. Last good BB was PCM63 from 25 years ago.

    Just get Gungnir multi-bit. Skip Bifrost multi-bit, which is the weakest DAC in the Schiit line.

    It may not matter much. You need to have sufficiently good downstream gear since DAC differences tend not to be huge. Also, component synergy is important. Using the m920 has a preamp for Gungnir Multibit might be gimping it. No idea how transparent it is.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2017
  5. TheIceman93

    TheIceman93 El pato-zorro

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    I'd be curious to see your rankings of the current Schiit DACs, best to worst, value not being a factor. I'd imagine that Yggdrasil and Gungnir Multibit would be 1 and 2 but I'd be curious to see how the DS and Multibit Bifrosts and Modi's rank. Placing the Bifrost Multibit dead last is certainly not what I expected.
     
  6. FallingObjects

    FallingObjects Pay It Forward

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    Torq has a pretty in depth review on the merits of the Bifrost(s) vs Modi Multibit

    http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/rings-of-gold-a-tale-of-eight-bifrosts.2643/
     
  7. TheIceman93

    TheIceman93 El pato-zorro

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    I have read Torq's thread which is why Marv placing the Bifrost Multibit at the bottom is so interesting. I'm going to assume he means weakest of all the Schiit DACs and not just weakest of the Schiit multibits.
     
  8. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    Versus Modi Multibit, I found Bifrost Multibit handled slam and deeper registers much better, along with maintaining detail and air in the highs without being a bit shrilly (relatively speaking). Between the two, Bifrost Multibit was more relaxed feeling but able to resolve just as much as Modi Multibit.

    The big differences I found were in the bass. The rest was splitting hairs. In that regard, Modi Multibit is a much better value but in the end I don't think a better dac.
     
  9. Clemmaster

    Clemmaster Friend

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    Bifrost Multibit is due for an upgrade.

    Gen5 USB is already a great improvement.
    Also, Bifrost Multibit will always have a beefier PSU, which is a significant advantage.
     
  10. Bluemeanies

    Bluemeanies New

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    I am considerably happy with the GRACE. Recently a heard a friends new/old dac by THETA connected to HIS GRACE and the first thing that hit me musically was how clear it sounded...clarity
    As far as a budget...$800-$1200. Of course if there was something out there below my budget I am all ears.
    I am not in a rush but I was reading about the GUNGNIR multibit but in reading your reply it does not sound like it would bean improvement. Spending $2-$3000 for an external dac is out of the question...of course picking up something used that had an orginal price point of 3k would certainly be considered.
    My friends THETA orginal costs was $6500 and his friend sold it to him for 1k...not a mark on it, orginal box and manuals.
     
  11. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    If you liked the Theta then the Gungnir MB would be a step in the right direction. You're in the states, buy the Gungnir MB from Schiit and try it out for 15 days. If you don't think it's worthwhile then return it for a restocking fee. Easiest way to find out; don't make a definitive decision based on a few sentences from some random guy you don't know.
     
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Differences of opinion.
    • I never liked any iteration of the AKM based Bifrosts.
    • I'd probably take a Gungnir DS over Bifrost Multibit.
    • Modi Multibit > Bifrost Multibit because Modi Multibit is more cohesive, i.e. similar sound and timbre thoughout the audio band. Bifrost Multibit is better in many specific aspects, but the highs and lows sound like they were generated from different DACs. And Bifrost Multibit isn't exceptional enough in any one way to make me overlook this.
     
  13. Scott Kramer

    Scott Kramer Friend

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  14. Ferrum

    Ferrum Acquaintance

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    I have the Grace m920 but have changed to a PS Audio Direct Stream Junior DAC and I can tell you its a lot better in almost every aspect of sound. But to keep this comment into perspective its all about small things, many stacked on top of each other but still small. So do you care about this or will the itch fade over time? You must decide.

    In my view the better the recording the more you hear all these small things so do you listen to a lot of these? With modern pop recordings these improvements are much harder to hear.

    The PS audio have one great advantage and its all about software meaning that when they deliver a new version you get a better dac for free.

    cheers
    Ferrum
     
  15. Bluemeanies

    Bluemeanies New

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    Hello,
    My apologies. I have 1password and I had trouble responding. Finally went to SAFARI and was able to get on to reply.
    My reading about the SCHIIT GUNGNIR MB has similar characteristics to the dac of the GRACE....which if I read correctly would make no improvement.
    In response to what I am looking for as in improvements I will ask if there is a better external dac that is more revealing in the mids and tweeter.
    The GRACE is a superlative pre-amp and maybe I am barking up the wrong tree and should not try to fix something that is not broke.
    I am not trying to add confusion to this post. The pre-amp of the GRACE offers a lot. My quest is whether or not the dac of the GRACE can be improved upon using another external dac that has for instance the BURR BROWN chips instead of the SABRE chips.
    If I am wrong about the SCHIIT...Let me know
    I am a virgin to all of this tech talk relating around dacs.
    Thanks everyone!

    Thanks Ferrum...I will take a look on your recommendation of the PS audio junior dac

    A bit to high for me to invest in at this time....$4000.00
    I am in no rush.
    Perhaps used I may be able to make a move.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 5, 2017
  16. bengo

    bengo Friend

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    Sabre DACs sound nothing like the Schiit multibit DACs really. To generalize, Sabre is full of fake treble detail which can be fatiguing, while Burr Brown is often nice/warm and inoffensive but smooths over detail. Good multibit stuff gives you the best of both.

    You can find some reasonable Sabre and BB based DACs out there, but the price is more into the Yggdrasil ball park or even above, and I think Yggdrasil sounds better.
    At around half the price and 95-98% the performance of a Yggdrasil, the Gungnir Multibit is a bit of a no brainer. Some people even prefer the Gungnir Multibit sound regardless of price.

    For Europeans I would also recommend to try the NAD C510 (or cheap used M51) which are really good at the price, these can often be found through a local dealer so you can get a demo. But value-wise this is less competitive in the US where Gungnir Multibit probably works out cheaper. Of course the NAD gear also acts as a preamp...

    A short summary of my own impressions in this thread: Not a lot of DAC talk on here... In general I would encourage you to read more before you rush into buying anything.

    If you want to try the Schiit stuff and get an idea, maybe try a used Modi Multibit, at around $150 and keeping nearly all its resale value is a tiny risk. Stepping up to Gungnir Multibit/Yggdrasil gives you more detail, much better extension at both ends, etc.

    @zerodeefex @ultrabike How's about we close this thread as these newbies would get better responses on the general purpose advice thread.
     
  17. Ice-man

    Ice-man Friend

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    ^^ Maybe he likes "fake" treble or boosted highs. It can certainly offer the perception of "clearer" especially if you are relatively new to the hobby. Modi Multibit is really the best recommendation I can make given the price point. MB implementation, and performance compared to higher priced DACS.
     
  18. Bluemeanies

    Bluemeanies New

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  19. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I didn't care for the m920, the highs were fatiguing and unnatural, and the overall tone was lean. Gungnir Multibit has more impact and growl. Also more resolving of microdetail and better localilzation of instruments.
     
  20. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    Sounds to me the OP likes what they have. They should spend their upgrade budget on music to listen to, plus some sex and drugs.
     

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