ECP Torpedo III [indexed in first post]

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by FlySweep, Nov 2, 2015.

  1. fjrabon

    fjrabon Acquaintance

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Likes Received:
    85
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Well, my maxed out (Mundorfs, cinemags, tube CCS, output CCS) TIII and Cayin iDAC6 just came in today. Finally got them both warmed up. And MY GOD they are singing. I realize ideally I should be A/Bing the TIII with a DAC I'm already familiar with, but I'm enjoying what I'm hearing way too much to worry about that right now. With Sonarworks -> GoodHertz Mid-Side/CanOpener -> iDAC6 -> TIII -> HD800, this is the most similar to a vinyl rig through great speakers I've heard headphones get. But with better bass extension and authority than a vinyl rig can reproduce. later this week I'll be comparing this setup to a Yggdrasil -> KGSSHV -> SR009, and I will be shocked if the SR009 setup wins out. I know this sounds like crazy new toy syndrome, but I've heard that SR009 setup a lot, and I always been blown away, but I think this setup matches it in most regards and beats it in several.

    Right now I'm using the 6829s mostly because I didn't want to take the case off at work to put the other tubes in. It's crazy to hear this much transparency AND power. Usually I feel like you have to choose one or the other, but not here.

    Was just listening to the intro of Pink Floyd Hey You, and thought I had accidentally switched output to my nearfield monitors because the sound was so distinctly out of my head. Bass is so crisp. Not elevated, but just so taught. Just feels like I'm listening to a virtually unlimited system.

    The iDAC6 + TIII put off a LOT of heat though, lol. Like when I sit down in my chair next to the area they're in, it's noticeably 3 degrees warmer than the rest of my office, haha.
     
  2. FlySweep

    FlySweep Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,412
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Great to hear you're enjoying it! My TIII will be almost identical to yours.. but with a few additional tweaks.. upgraded resistors, Belleson power regulator, and (possibly) nicer RCA plugs and a carbon pot.

    Do let us know how the HD800 sounds off your rig w/o SonarWorks, too. I'd be interested to see how the TIII (and your DACs) handle the 'native' HD800.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2016
  3. fjrabon

    fjrabon Acquaintance

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Likes Received:
    85
    Trophy Points:
    18
    With the TIII the sonarworks difference seems to have gotten smaller, ie it's a less drastic change when I A/B switch it on and off. Which, at first, didn't make sense to me, how would a more revealing amp make DSP changes LESS apparent?! However, the more I've listened, the thing that I think is going on is that the TIII is a less harsh amp, with virtually none of its THD in the higher harmonics, which makes the non-calibrated HD800 smoother, even though it's more elevated in treble, the treble is less offensive. So, while on a lot of other amps the uncalibrated HD800 makes any high order harmonic distortion abundantly clear, with the TIII, all you hear is the elevated fundamental treble, not a big pointer sign to the amp's harshness issue. I still prefer the balanced sound of the sonarworks calibration, but the TIII sounds brilliant even without it, it's just brighter. Listening to Kind of Blue and going back and forth between the two, t's like going from a club with metal ceilings (no sonarworks) to a club with wood ceilings (sonarworks). Before sonarworks was night and day in listenability, whereas now it's "oh yeah, the FR changed" instead of how it is with most other amps, where I find it intolerable without sonarworks.

    The flipside is that adjustments to CanOpener are MORE apparent now, as the TIII + iDAC6's ability to accurately preserve spatial cues means that small nudges in settings in CanOpener are clearly apparent, whereas previously it took pretty sweeping changes in CanOpener to hear a difference.

    With two sets of tubes in the chain (iDAC6 is a tube output DAC), it's been interesting getting use to hearing me bump into my desk. I wouldn't say the microphonics are bad like the old Vali was, but you can certainly hear it when you bump the table. Won't be an issue when I get it to my home setup, but interesting nonetheless. Not sure which piece is contributing more, the TIII or iDAC6.
     
  4. TomB

    TomB MOT: Beezar

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,753
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Atlanta
    Home Page:
    Very insightful and a cool analysis. Doug will be glad to hear this, because that's exactly what he's striven for through the years with his amp designs.

    This is easy - snap your fingernail on the case of either the DAC or the T3. You'll know pretty quickly which one has the microphonic tube(s). If that doesn't do it, very carefully tap one of the tubes with a pencil or similar. That will tell you for sure. The 6829's may tend that way, because they were essentially computer tubes. Hopefully, it's not too distracting. If that's truly the source of the microphonics and it continues to be a bother, let me know and I'll replace it. I don't believe in making people suffer with microphonic tubes - it's a defect in audio use, period.
     
  5. fjrabon

    fjrabon Acquaintance

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Likes Received:
    85
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Yeah, that's definitely the most pleasing aspect of this amp to me is you can hear that almost all of the THD is in the lowest order harmonics, which to me is vastly more pleasing than an amp that maybe has slightly lower overall THD, but has a decent chunk of it in the high order harmonics. It's rare that a tube amp does this without having too much THD (ie the tubby honking "tube" sound), but you guys nailed it. I'd say this is pretty close to my perfect THD profile, both in overall amount and which harmonics it goes into.

    Yeah, it's the TIII. It hasn't bothered me, I'll check if it's just the 6829s when I get home and have a chance to roll the 12Z7s in there, I have a suspicion that I'll like the 12Z7s more anyway (though the 6829s are knocking my socks off already). It doesn't bother me at all, as normal slight vibrations don't trigger it, and it's only low frequency ringing (sounds like maybe 300Hz?). When it's on my home rig setup, it won't be an issue at all.
     
  6. dsavitsk

    dsavitsk Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,616
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Home Page:
    The magic of not using feedback :)
     
  7. TomB

    TomB MOT: Beezar

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,753
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Atlanta
    Home Page:
    Give yourself more credit. There's a lot more to your designs than just zero-feedback. ;)
     
  8. fjrabon

    fjrabon Acquaintance

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Likes Received:
    85
    Trophy Points:
    18
    So yeah, after rolling in the 12Z7s, it was just the 6829s that were microphonic. The 12Z7s don't ring at all.

    With the 6829s, I was even starting to notice sympathetic ringing when any sounds in the room hit 250Hz.

    So far the 12Z7s seem to be a bit smoother. But also a bit more transparent. Definitely feel like these are a step above the 6829s, which were already very good in their own right. The 6829 may have had a tiny bit more bass authority, but the 12Z7s are definitely sounding much more natural, which is always my goal.
     
  9. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,417
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Boom.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. brencho

    brencho Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Likes Received:
    7,978
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    LA
    @bazelio checks out! good luck getting em in there, looking forward to your thoughts!
     
  11. dsavitsk

    dsavitsk Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,616
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Home Page:
    This -------^

    And don't forget that those tabs are live voltage. Do not touch them while the amp is on.
     
  12. brencho

    brencho Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Likes Received:
    7,978
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    LA
    [​IMG]
     
  13. fjrabon

    fjrabon Acquaintance

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Likes Received:
    85
    Trophy Points:
    18
    You guys are gonna flip over these output CCS. True game changers on this amp. I think the second biggest upgrade you can make after the cinemags. And maybe as big as the cinemags.

    On a slightly different note, I'm digging the stock 12AY7 EH tubes way more than I thought I would. Maybe it's my setup of calibrated HD800, tube analog output DAC, with the "powerful" filter selected on the dual AKM 4490s (which are already a smooth/warm DAC chip). Loving the EH 12AY7 transparency and dynamics. And the treble, I find perfectly acceptable, no glare or grain through my setup.

    I wasn't expecting to like them based on reviews, but of the three I have (GE 6829 5 star, GE 12AZ7) it's been my favorite so far. In my setup it sounds very neutral, with great bass layering and dynamics, and great transparency.

    So far I'd rank them

    1) EH 12AY7
    2) GE 12AZ7
    3) GE 6829 5 star

    I've liked them all, except the microphonics issue I had with the 6829. But the 12AY7 is really slotting in nicely with my current setup. Probably will roll a couple more after I do some more research, just for kicks, but I could absolutely be satisfied with the 12AY7.
     
  14. TomB

    TomB MOT: Beezar

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,753
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Atlanta
    Home Page:
    I've updated the installation documentation for all the Tweaks on the Torpedo III website. Installation for the Output CCS Boards is now "Tweak #5." :)
     
  15. Riotvan

    Riotvan Snoofer in the Woofer

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    4,171
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    I couldn't find the Dow corning kit in any reasonable price and or quantity here so i ordered some other stuff. It's called Sikaflex 252, it's non corrosive and non conductive and the temperature use range is -45C to 90C and 130C for up to 4 hours. This should be fine right? It remains elastic and it has vibration dampening properties.
     
  16. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,417
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There are at least a few products that are suitable for PCB work. Having soldered my boards in last night, I felt they were very secure as is. But the advice from Doug and Tom is wise to follow. My local electronics shop carries this MG Chemicals product which I'll try to pick up over the weekend. I had other disruptions last night, and I will proceed to testing these boards without the RTV in place today, and then finish up tomorrow or so.
     
  17. Riotvan

    Riotvan Snoofer in the Woofer

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    4,171
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Yeah i figured the small pcb's would be secure but i still have to secure the Mundorf's. I will do it all in one go, pcb's, resistor fix and securing everything.

    Looking forward to your impressions, perhaps mine will arrive tomorrow, seems tracking is disabled outside the US with the default shipping option.
     
  18. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,417
    Trophy Points:
    113
    And boom.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Riotvan

    Riotvan Snoofer in the Woofer

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    4,171
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Very nice!
     
  20. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,417
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Output CCS Impressions (3 songs in) ::

    OK, my amp is a little different I suppose, given the AMRG resistors and alternate caps. This is all a pretty tight fit as you can see in #1060. Those AMRGs are mounted proud of the board, but a little crooked. Anyhow, I digress... Sound-wise, I agree it's a step up. I'm not experiencing a significant increase in the lower midrange or bass region, however. I think my amp was already there, as it was the primary effect of the AMRGs. But what I do notice is a more open and detailed midrange and treble. The tonality is unchanged. It is still very tonally balanced and there is no added harshness or sibiliance, etc as a result of the newly added detail. But this extra detail does seem to come forth as a result of a slightly more forward sound signature in general. I'm hearing everything just a bit more clearly, a bit more up front. By way of analogy, perhaps I was listening behind a light curtain before (and didn't know it). But now the curtain is open and the sound is closer to me and clearer. Blah... not much one for audiophile analogies. :)

    All in all, a worthwhile mod especially if you've never done plate load resistors updates. I strongly suspect that what we get (sound wise) from these output CCS boards is everything I got from the AMRGs, and more. AMRGs are probably no longer necessary - but that's just a guess.

    PS, I lucked out. No snap, crackle, pop. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2016

Share This Page