ECP Torpedo III [indexed in first post]

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by FlySweep, Nov 2, 2015.

  1. zonto

    zonto Friend

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    @MisterRogers also used Brimar CV4003 (12AU7) and appears to have enjoyed them (source: one, two). FWIW, Tubemonger also sells NOS Brimar CV4034s, which are the flying lead premium / long life version of the CV4003, with their custom Bakelite bases (more info). Those are the 12AU7 equivalent of the Brimar CV4033 (12AT7 equivalent) tubes I posted about above. Based on the reviews, people seem to like the Brimar CV4034s as well, especially with PrimaLuna gear.
     
  2. TomB

    TomB MOT: Beezar

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    It's not a silly query, especially if you haven't been involved in the history or read every post in this thread. ;)

    Let's just say a "fully-loaded" T3 includes all of the ECP Audio-Beezar Audio sanctioned tweaks. These can actually be found on the T3 website, which was useful when we were still selling kits for DIY-ers. A couple of the most important tweaks - that made a big difference in sound quality - became too difficult (even unsafe?) to allow some DIY-ers to build. We made the decision a while back to quit selling these in kit form as a result.

    Anyway, you will still see references to building and installing various parts from many of the guys around here, because they 1) built the amplifier themselves, and 2) contributed significantly in developing many of these tweaks.

    So ... the "sanctioned" tweaks are 1) Cinemag output transformers (sort of so standard it really wasn't a tweak), 2) Tube CCS boards, 3) Output CCS boards, and 4) Mundorf Aluminum-Silver MCap capacitors (not yet installed in my photo above). The four T3s will have all of these tweaks.

    As for tubes, I would depend on these guys and what they're finding. Rolling different tubes in a tube amp is one of the great adventures a tube amplifier owner can pursue. As they said, purchasing a T3 includes the Electro-Harmonix 12AY7 and I typically throw in some others - 12AZ7, 6829, for instance. The EH 12AY7 may not be the absolute best tube, but it's typically the most consistent in quality control - mainly because it's new manufacture. You may find it's all you ever need. JJ tubes are another new manufacture tube maker, too, but I think the EH's are better quality. Some JJ tubes can vary in bottle size by over 1/4". They often sound pretty good, but that kind of physical variance just bugs me. When you get into NOS, it can be an adventure. Generally, you will get very good results with the 12A*7 family, but it can be a crap shoot sometimes. There is always the chance you will find something really spectacular, too. :)
     
  3. Daveheart

    Daveheart Friend

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    So I've got a few compatible options on hand and then many more in storage including the CV4034s from tubemonger (I'm moving in the next couple weeks and will get all the rest of my tubes and gear back then). For now this is what I have on hand:

    [​IMG]

    There's a bunch of Sylvania gold brand 5751's along with some JANs. Also some Amperex and Telefunken 12AT7s. I've also got some Siemens, HP, GE, Mullard, and RCA 12AU7s. I'll roll some through before the move and take some notes. The CV4034 was among my favorites with the liquid glass, so I look forward to trying that with the TIII after the move. Also, @Mr.Sneis thanks for the rec. I don't really have any need to buy more tubes, but I may look for some just to try if they're as cheap as you say they are.
     
  4. SineDave

    SineDave Friend

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    I bought Brencho's maxxed out T3 and am using the Tubemonger Brimar NOS CV4033. I really like them so far, but I haven't had the opportunity to buy yellow tails yet.
     
  5. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

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    I would like to hear CV4003 in my T3, but have never bit on any of the Tube Monger custom exclusive stuff. The problem is they are so scarce there is not much reliable data available about them or how they sound in audio applications. And I think Tube Monger is finding they are a $10 glass of lemonade in his lemonade stand.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2017
  6. gbeast

    gbeast Mighty Moral Power Ranger

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    I picked up a Torpedo III w/ all the upgrades on the Beezar site. I bit on that one from head-fi. I was advised that 1K is a decent price for it.

    I have been hearing a lot of tube amps lately and unfortunately/fortunately (depending on how you look at it) have been liking all of them except a couple. The problem for me is that none of the tube amps I have heard have a well established reputation, good or bad so I have a feeling the Torpedo III will help me see things with better relativity. I have gone off the deep end with tube amps and absolutely love them. I don't know if any solid state can deliver the things I like about tube amps.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2017
  7. Daveheart

    Daveheart Friend

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    So I did some tube rolling over the last couple of days. Here's the list of tubes I ran through the TIII:
    • Telefunken 12au7
    • GE Gold Brand 5751
    • Telefunken 12at7
    • RCA 12au7 (clear top)
    • Amperex 12at7 (Great Britain) -
    • GE five star 5965A (clear top/dual side getter)
    The clear top RCA 12au7 were quite enjoyable and I found myself just kinda drifting off into the music and not taking notes (I took about ten pages of notes). They may have been a bit euphonic, but the tonal balance/timbre was really enjoyable. That being said, the 5965As were the real standout. They seemed to best the Telefunkens on inner detail and articulation but still had a pleasing frequency response like the RCA clear-tops. I still may have some tubes in storage that'll be better than any I tested this weekend, but the 5965A was a clear win. I think you can find them fairly regularly for under $10 a tube on eBay, and I believe Brent Jesse charges $40 for a well-matched pair.
     
  8. TomB

    TomB MOT: Beezar

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    Well, based on your post - I bought a cheap collection of 5965s off the Bay - a mix of Burroughs and GE. Many were very microphonic, which is to be expected for tubes meant for computers. The Burroughs were almost unlistenable because of the microphonics. The GEs were much better - all of the them double side-getters as you noted (the Burroughs were top getters). I'd have to say that they rank right up there in my opinion with the 12AZ7s. They seem to be really clear and detailed in the T3, with that extra bit of low distortion that pulls the plankton out, similar to what I've always heard in the 12AZ7s. Despite the tendency to microphonics, they're well worth checking out.
     
  9. JeffYoung

    JeffYoung Friend

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    So how do you know if a tube is microphonic? Do you tap it on the side while listening to it and see if you can hear anything? Or tap the amp chassis?

    [Edit: Oh, and while I'm here, how much are those built-up TIII's going for?]
     
  10. Riotvan

    Riotvan Snoofer in the Woofer

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    Just listen, even if it's microphonic during tapping it might be fine with normal use.
     
  11. TomB

    TomB MOT: Beezar

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    All of the above ... but more often than not, it usually happens when you plug in the headphones, or even just reaching to adjust the volume knob. If they're really bad, you'll hear them by just touching the table or shelf the amp is sitting on.

    The degree of microphonics, when present, can run the gamut from a tiny nuisance (maybe a slight echo when strongly jarring the amp) to noise that seemingly occurs from just breathing on the amp. The latter is intolerable, while the former can be easily overlooked if the tubes sound good.

    BTW, there is often no correlation between sound quality vs microphonics. Although as with the discussion above, there are certain tube types where microphonics was not a concern of the tube mfr. That doesn't mean they won't sound great, though.

    $1325 fully loaded. The T3s (Torpedo IIIs) pictured earlier are now finished and available at beezar.com.
     
  12. gbeast

    gbeast Mighty Moral Power Ranger

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    Brief impressions have the maxed out T3 performing very very similar to my Auris HA 2SE in all technical areas. In fact I haven't heard two devices so at eachothers neck in terms of technicalities. The Auris is very slightly more controlled in the bass but I'll hold back official impressions until I unpack and confirm with the Utopia.

    Both Auris and T3 vs my Mogwai with upgrades (very brief):

    Mogwai:
    First of all the caps I have in the Mogwai make it sound less thick and aggressive than stock with a wider soundstage but the bass is not as strong.

    • Soundstage depth: goes to the Auris and T3 but a little bit.
    • Soundstage width is Mogwai>>Auris>T3
    • Resolution/detail retrieval: Mogwai >>Auris/T3
    • Treble Bite, snap, attack: T3>(cayin ha 1amkii would be right up in here somewhere, its pretty crisp for a tube amp) >Auris(very close to the T3) >>Mogwai
    • Tube Wetness: Mogwai>T3>Auris
    • Bass soldity and control: Auris>T3>Mogwai
    • Power: Mogwai>Auris(would use it with most planars and be okay)>>T3
    • Tonality all depends on tubes used and right now my Mogwai with Psvanes KT88MKIIs sound most nuetral but also the most soft and least aggressive.
    • Dynamics: depends on the headphones. With dynamics the T3 and Auris are close with the Mogwai right there. The T3 sounded most agressive to me.
    My last review of the Cayin ha1A mkii is what I was most worried about. I figured I may have lost my bearings on that one but actually after hearing the reputable T3 I am confident in what I reported. The Auris was practically like having the T3 as a reference. The Cayin sounds more wet and 'tubey' than the above and slightly less resolving with the stock tubes in but it has sweeter tones with a sound that is competitively fast for a tube amp. It has good snap and bite with a lack of compression in the midrange. It also has a slightly smaller soundstage than the T3 but is acceptably holographic. But the T3 sounds more punchy by a little bit with better controlled bass.
    The T3 I have also has no hum, hiss and has a lower noise floor than the Cayin but doesn't seem as black in background as the Auris.

    Well, like I said when I unpack I will do a better comparison of the T3 and Auris HA 2SE. Memory (feelin kinda iffy about it right now though) has the Auris and T3 as the best values for tube amps but the Auris has more power and the T3 maxed is hard to find.

    After hearing the T3 I have grown fonder of the Auris and also will have a chance to throw the new taboo MK IV in the mix and do my best at a write up. If the Auris, Mogwai, and T3 will be here when it arrives is the question as circumstances seem like they may be pulling at my rig(especially with FS adds open). I have a feeling like my Mogwai is leading the pack in resolution but me not having speaker taps to hear it from the 8ohm impedance is not giving me the correct idea of how controlled it really is. If anyone has an extra banana to headphone adapter, id be much obliged to borrow or even buy one.

    For me, the T3 sounds wonderful.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2017
  13. JeffYoung

    JeffYoung Friend

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    The power transformers are also available from Edcor (even though they aren't listed on their website): part #XPWR274, $25.94. Call 575-887-6790 and ask for sales.
     
  14. TomB

    TomB MOT: Beezar

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    This is awfully trivial in the context of all the Focal-Audeze-SonyZ1R hoopla going on. Nevertheless, it's maybe causing some suspicion in other areas and the subject of T1/T3 RCA jacks has come up again. So, I thought I would post again in an attempt to set the record straight.

    Here's two pics that illustrate the confusion:
    [​IMG]

    and this:
    [​IMG]

    Note that the RCA jacks are reversed in these two pics.

    When the T3 was under development, I ran out of the original Mouser RCA jacks that we used on the T1 (all of these are dual-mounted, vertical PCB assemblies). Knowing the T3 was imminent and that I had run out of the Mouser jacks, I quickly found some on DigiKey and ordered 100 of them: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/cui-inc/RCJ-2223/CP-1435-ND/408522

    Here's a pic:
    [​IMG]

    Note that the Red jack is on top. After noticing this and knowing that Dsavitsk was still designing the PCB, I asked him to switch the signal traces so that the Red still corresponded to the Right channel. He did so and every T3 PCB, kit, and assembled version has been setup this way. The Red jack is the Right channel and the White jack is the Left channel. There have been no exceptions to this with the T3.

    Unfortunately, I was still using some of the cases from the T1, since both are identical. The backplate had been etched with "L" and "R" corresponding to the no-longer-available Mouser jacks. (In gold, I since found out that they still have silver ones, but after I had ordered 100 of the DigiKey versions.) We apologized for this confusion earlier in this thread. Later backplates on T3s simply deleted the "L" and "R" from the backplate.

    The connections have always been consistent on a T3, however. The top Red jack is the Right channel and the bottom White jack is the Left channel.

    One more thing caused some confusion and this is simply a result of my own laziness. Knowing that the T1 and T3 were identical on the outside, I substituted a few T1 pics for the T3 in some instances on Beezar.com and DIYForums.org. The 2nd photo above that shows the Red jack at the bottom is indeed a T1 (actually, I think it's a T2 prototype), not a T3. Again, I apologize for that and it has caused some confusion, especially with a recent re-sale apparently, where the customer and even buyer did not necessarily have the full background on events.

    So once again - the colors have been absolutely consistent on the T3. Red is always the Right channel and White is always the Left channel, but Red is on top and White is on bottom. If you see a photo where that is not the case, then it's actually a T1. (There were only two T2s ever built and I still have both of them.)

    :(


    P.S. One guy locally purchased the production prototype of the T3 from me at a reduced cost. It did not have the final PCB and may have had the old RCA jacks with red on the bottom. He will have to confirm, because I don't remember. So that pic above might be his amp instead of a T2. I simply can't remember and without seeing the insides, there's no way to tell - except that the tubes are too fat for the 7-pin tubes used in the T1.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  15. Mr.Sneis

    Mr.Sneis Friend

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    Thanks Tom, I swear it was not me asking this time :)

    This may have been answered before, but is there a part number available with a left on top right on bottom set of jacks via mouser or digikey or is that part simply NLA? I probably should have ordered some to experiment in the umpteen previous orders I've made but never tried.
     
  16. TomB

    TomB MOT: Beezar

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    Oh yeah - of course, I found a bunch of them after I bought 100 of the other ones. :mad:

    Here's a couple from Mouser - one of them is Switchcraft, even ... grrrrr:
    http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/CUI/RCJ-2223/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv0W4pxf2HiV2C89K%2bWnR8/7fNgdXPH9WnC6BNhO9UAdw==

    http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Switchcraft/PJRAS1X2S01AUX/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv0W4pxf2HiV7sv6uhfrItvZi4G/z6/q4g=

    It was the GOLD ones that disappeared.
     
  17. songmic

    songmic Gear cycler East Asia edition

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    It was me who asked... I was late in the game and recently got ahold of a T3 and noticed the discrepancy. Sorry for inadvertently bringing up an issue that has already been discussed and answered.
     
  18. TomB

    TomB MOT: Beezar

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    Please - don't worry about it. I wasn't looking to blame anyone but myself for causing the confusion. It was simply an opportunity to make the explanation again, now that a number of T3s are out in the wild, so to speak. :)
     
  19. songmic

    songmic Gear cycler East Asia edition

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    Got a used TomB-assembled maxed-out Torpedo III in good condition. So far I've been listening for 2 days, but my initial impressions are overwhelmingly positive. I don't have the ECP L-2 with me now for a direct A/B comparison, but from memory alone, this is clearly the better amp for HD800.

    My original intention was to use the T3 primarily for driving HD6XX, as I had put up my HD800 for sale. Upon listening to HD800 with T3, the T3/HD800 is a keeper and I'm glad the HD800 didn't get sold before the T3 arrived (though I'll have to find another way to cover my financial trouble). As blasphemous as it may sound, I think the T3/HD800 is just as great as Stratus/HD800 but offering a different presentation. My latest version Stratus throws a larger, more holographic soundstage, but the T3 makes the HD800 more listenable and really smooths out its treble without sacrificing anything. I bought mine used for less than $1000, but even at $1325, this is a killer deal. Could be new toy syndrome, but now I don't feel so bad about letting go of my Stratus.

    So why are you guys still around? There are only 2 left!
    http://www.beezar.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=172
     
  20. Mr.Sneis

    Mr.Sneis Friend

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    I found that the T3 is very tube dependent with the HD800 and HD600; so if it's killing it with the hd800, but less so with the 6xx or vice versa you should definitely swap tubes to get them sounding better.
     

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