Experimenting with High-Pass for P3ESR with REL T5i

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by murphythecat, Jun 2, 2017.

  1. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    hi everyone
    I have built a DIY Pass B1 pre amp. with the help of Thorsten Loesch, Ive added a way to have a highpass to one of my Pass b1 output.

    here are the measurements of my P3ESR at the listening position.
    you can see the fullrange measurements and the Highpass measurements with the bass rolling off
    [​IMG]screen shot on pc

    I still connect my REL T5i via high level input and so literraly make the sub battle the highpass. probably not the best solution but my measurements seems to be fine and I still get extension down to 30hz

    the red line here is the P3esr at the LP highpassed and the white line is when I add the REL t5i. pretty happy with the measurements!
    [​IMG]hosting images

    the highpass first obvious advantage is how much louder the P3ESR can play without sounding distress or compressed. this is imo the main problem of the P3esr compared to my SHL5+.

    more experiments to come! this is something I think open up a complete different approach to 2.1 channel as I feel integrating a passive highpass via my Pass b1 is very transparent
     
  2. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    Yesterday, ive tried to connect the REL sub via line level rather then the recommended REL hi level input. The line level input, even though it measured quite a bit better, sounded horrendous. never did I hear a REL sub so obviously singing a different tune then the mains. it was like two speaker playing a different bass line, transients were literally mushed. It was literally funny, me and my mate laughed at the terrible integration. Ill stick to hi level input as it sounds much better integrated, transients are fast.. integration is just perfect to my ears with hilevel.


    Im amazed by how much louder the P3ESR can go when highpassed, its special to finally hear what the P3ESR are capable of. I can have my 50 WPC lm3875 gainclone playing at almost max level and the P3esr are still able to take it! id say that in my small bedroom, the P3ESR highpassed can go as loud as I need. The P3ESR sounds much less compressed and the midrange is now more open and more details are coming thrue.

    My pass b1 with highpass capabilities make me want to re-explore all my small standmounts. ill try the kef ls50 and atc scm7v3 and see which speaker react the best to my new system.


    however, comparing SHL5+ to my highpassed P3ESR + REL T5i, the SHL5+ bass is still more impressive and bigger. is it more accurate, I dont know, but the SHL5+ bass is more fun, more visceral.
     
  3. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    ok
    I just realized that the dip at 400hz was created by the orientation of my measurements mic. same with the dip at 100hz!

    I now have a extraordinary response at the listening position. my room is well treated but ever since I changed orientation of my room, im quite amazed by my measurements taken about 7 feet away from the speakers at the LP:
    the white line is the P3ESR fullrange without subwoofer
    the yellow line is the P3ESR highpassed without subwoofer
    the red line is the P3ESR highpassed with the subwoofer well integrated
    [​IMG]image sharing
    im not sure why I get such a bumped response under 250hz downward, but I guess this is room gain and nothing I can much do

    this is the proof that with some treatment and well understanding on to how to find the best listening position and speaker position, anyone with patience can achieve excellent measurements at the LP

    I also know that because Im highpassing the mains, I reduce SBIR interference under about 100hz which is a welcomed by-improvement. wonder what can I do to remove the 125 to 250hz 4 db bump...
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
  4. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    the bump under 250 hz was due to my mic orientation
    new measurements
    [​IMG]
     
  5. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    okay
    im officially going mad but playing with subwoofer placement brings huge benefits in this setup.

    with the REL T5i on the floor between the mains, I just couldnt get the subwoofer to fill my dip at 100hz. Ive then decided to put it on the table in between my speakers at the same height of the speakers.

    Results is now its basically flat from 35 hz to 120hz. I no longer haev that dip and the bass have much better fondation. I know I shouldnt have a single sub go as high as 100hz, but what the hell, it sounds much more convincing in the bass and since its right between my mains and at the same height, I dont hear the bass coming from the sub.

    Pics and measurements tomorrow!
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
  6. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    Murphy, after all this work why are you still looking to sell these speakers?!
     
  7. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    here my final measurements at the listening position

    green line is with sub activated

    yellow line is the p3esr with the 1st order highpassed around 100hz


    [​IMG]
     
  8. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    I actually received a offer that meet my demand price and im in a big dilemma right now, as I really love the sound. Im debating today whether to sell them or cancel the whole deal. yes, im mad :)
     
  9. ak2angel

    ak2angel Acquaintance

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    Great stuff ! I initially tried the P3ESR and found them a bit too laid-back for my liking and equipment, so I went for ATC 7 instead. But I think P3's midrange still edge out that of the 7s.
    About the rel sub, I have 2 questions:
    Is it possible to connect preamp out directly into the high-level input of the sub ? (without the highpass I mean).
    And have you tried using 2 subs instead of 1 (for true stereo configuration) ?
     
  10. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    we also have the scm7v3. I find the p3esr mid edges it out a bit, its more beautiful sounding. its indeed a bit laid back presentation however.

    no, you cannot use high level input out of the preamp. hi level input use the output out of the speaker amp terminals

    ill probably get a second sub eventually for sure!
     
  11. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    :confused:just realized my sub was out of phase all this time lol

    the sub when out of phase was cancelling and so I had to put it much too high. I cant believe I did such stupid mistake. youd think after 3 years playing with subs Id have learn! despite measuring fine, it was out phase. I realized when I diconnected the mains and realized that the sub was playing much louder then the mains. but when the mains + sub was playing, the low bass was actually reduced:rolleyes:

    the downside is that the hipass on the sub is much more evident and I only get -10db around 35hz.
     
  12. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    That sounds pretty bad. Why even use a subwoofer when it can't even reproduce subbass? Nevermind, I realize the sub is only 8". 8" woofers trying to do subbass will distort so much that I guess you're lucky it doesn't have subbass. At least you have the advantage of more membrane area giving less distortion.
     
  13. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    I compared directly the Devore 093 vs the P3's and the P3's are amazing in comparison but they are utterly lacking in the bass, just a mess: compressed, undefined, coloured, boxy. hipassing the P3's around 100hz make them sound so much cleaner, it removes much of the problems in the bass.

    the REL adds from 35hz to 100hz much cleaner, with actual punch to the sound and real satisfying grunt. with the hipass, I gain much more SPL capability, better dynamics, more open sound, less distortion and IMD in the midrange since the small midbass in the p3esr dont move much anymore. I gain also a bigger surface area under 100hz, less distortion, ect.

    here's the new measurements taken 7 feet away at the LP
    first measurements is without sub, the P3ESR playing with no hipass in green and the yellow line is with the hipass activated.
    [​IMG]

    Here, the white line is the sub output , the yellow line is the P3esr with hipass + sub, and the yellow line is the P3ESR with the highpass but no sub.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  14. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    Oh I didn't quite get that you were talking about the same high-pass. I'm not that surprised that the tiny P3ESR driver benefits from not having to reproduce bass. I guess your option would be to get a 2nd amp for the woofer, one that sounds better than the built-in one.
     
  15. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    the amp in the REL is not the problem, the problem is that the REL is being fed by the same line that feed the P3ESR and so hipssed as well. so the REL have to fight the hipass, if you know what I mean. The REL input is using the hilevel feed (which take the input at the speaker amp terminal).

    I have a DIY pass b1 with 4 output. one output (the one which feed my P3ESR) have the hipass in the line level, the 3 other outputs dont have the hipass.

    what just flashed in my head is that I could use another amp, feed it with one of the other output of my pass b1that dont have the hipass and connect the sub via hilevel using another speaker amp.

    the thing with the REL sub is I tried the line level input. it measured much better since I used one of the other 3 output on my Pass B1 that are not hipassed but the integration suffer a lot. the sub and the main sounded like two different entities. it really sounded like crap even though it measured much better. IME, line level to sub sounds bad in comparison to hilevel input.

    I understand my situation is quite unusual, I hope im able to explain it well. im french so pardon my sometimes clumsy explanations
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  16. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    lol, I refined again the XO

    the dip at 100hz is room related, not much I can do about it.
    the bass is tuneful, tight, fast. I can hear every nuance in the bass. highpassing the p3esr allow more much SPL, the sound is truly special now and for my small room, everything I craved. I get the harbeth magic midrange, but with a bass that is very accurate. this system is a shocker for the price. ill add a second rel t5i eventually

    the only "problem" is that the bass is still small in scale, but i may find it even better then my shl5+ in that I feel the lossy cabinet bass ''coloration'' with highpassing the p3esr seems to be removed vs the shl5+.

    measurements taken at the listening position 7 feet away
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  17. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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  18. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    actually, im able to reduce the dip at 100hz even more without the sound being overly bassy


    this is probably the best ill ever be able to go as one tick more on the crossover setting of the sub and the sub is too much present

    taken from the LP 7 feet away.
    [​IMG]
     
  19. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Have you tried putting your cat behind your head to reduce reflection?


    :p
     
  20. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    :)
    I have a 7 inch thick first reflection panel behind my bed/head
     

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