Going Balanced on HD800/HD600...Worth it or no?

Is there generally THAT much of an improvement when switching from a single-ended setup to one that runs balanced? Or is it something like squeezing, say, an extra 5% out of a single-ended setup? Does it make the soundstage even larger on the HD800?

Basically, I'm asking if the expense is worth planning a rig over, especially considering my main amp(s) is/are single-ended only (I'm probably getting a Gungnir Multibit sometime next year, so the balanced outputs have me thinking).

 

I haven't heard it, but to me, It would probably make the HD800 sound worse, since that headphone is already too detailed as it is when connected to a reference dac/amp.

 

se is enough, but some guys think only xlr can be called "highend".

 

For arguments sake, I'll use the Mojo 2 as an example. It looks decently priced for a balanced amp. But I'm open to suggestions as far as amps go ($2500 probably being my absolute limit). But my question is more about what effect does going balanced do, compared to SE? And is it generally worth the expense?

I'm trying to make sure for the additional expense, the upgrade is worth it. If it's like a 5% improvement or something minor, forget it.

 

This topic was covered pretty thoroughly back on mother Chang - a search over there will reveal some good discussions. The simple answer, without delving in to specific pieces of equipment, is that the SE vs. Balanced issue really isn't worth getting too worked up about. Concentrate on what a specific piece of gear sounds like and what it's capabilities truly are, not what its inputs/outputs are. A really well done SE amp fed by a SE inputs out of a great source is easily better than an "OK" balanced amp/source. The implementation matters here. My single ended Glenn OTL custom tube amp easily out resolves my Ragnarok, with the Glenn being fed by Yggdrasil's SE outputs and the Rag being fed by the balanced outputs. However, the Rag is gimped if running via single ended, as the topology is inherently balanced. Same goes for the Mojo. Different amps, different topologies, different design objectives, different capabilities, etc

For the HD800/HD6xx's focus on getting a very good, resolving source (Gungnir Multibit/Yggdrasil are a good bet), and then find an amp that's synergistic with their capabilities/shortcomings. Just because it's a balanced design won't mean it's the better amp per say - but it could be. Listen and don't get hung up on specs.

As an aside, I have found that even via a SE amp, a 4-pin XLR headphone out sounds superior - better connection IMO, but this shouldn't be confused with "balanced" per say. This is the case with my Glenn OTL tube amp, and others have found it to be the case with other amps (BW comes to mind).

Bollocks.

 

The Mojo 2's balanced output is leaps and bounds over its SE output because of it's topology. (The SE out is a utility out, much like it is in the Ragnarok. Not to say that it doesn't sound good, but it's not up to snuff compared to the balanced output.) In this specific case, the improvement is way more than some sort of 1/20 ratio of generalized betterness. The general rule that I usually go by is shitty single ended = shitty balanced < good single ended < good balanced < great single ended =< great balanced, where the delta at the last two is going to be f'ing small (so small that the TRS vs XLR plug likely matters more itself) and the improvement assumes some sort of abstract plane where the amp's design doesn't privilege one output over the other.

The real issue is this: we don't live on that abstract plane. The short list of amplifiers that I've heard that I'd consider really exceptional is so small as to make the single-ended/balanced issue infinitely less important than other factors with regards to the amp (i.e. power output, output impedance, general signature, tubes/solid state, synergy with source & chosen headphone, synergy with imagined possible future upgrades, number of inputs/outputs, presence of a passive or active preamp/loop out, the color of the face plate, the size of the footprint, how hot it gets, how much it increases my electric bill by, the material composition of the volume knob, where its manufactured, whether or not I know the people that run the company, how heavy it is, how it looks in my living room at 4 am when I'm getting up to take a piss and the bathroom light reflects off the casing, etc.)

Headphone depending, I'd use a Leckerton mkII, Apex Glacier, Lyr 2, Valhalla 2, well built SWA M3, Gilmore Lite, Gilmore V2/GS-1, Cavalli CTH, Asgard 2, EC ZD/ZD Super/Super 7, EHHA Rev. A, or Krell Klone over most of the amps I've heard. I haven't heard the BW or Copperhead, but I'd add them to the list easily by reputation alone. None of these are "fully balanced" and all of these are really nice, especially when price points are considered.

(Or, what JoelT wrote above while I was typing this out.)

 

Have you seen a therapist for this anger? I'm concerned about you, FRIEND.

 

Slightly OT, but is the Liquid Carbon an amp whose design makes performance of its SE output inferior to its balanced output (assuming balanced source)?

 

The SE and Balanced are surprisingly close on the Liquid Carbon. Also the phase splitter on the LC is very, very good - such that it does very well even with single ended input.

 

The biggest difference that I have heard is HD600/650 SE (TRS) vs. Balanced (TRRS) out of the Geek Out V2. The HD6X0 just open up and sing- larger, full, dynamic, depth, layers. I was really surprised. Waiting for reports on whether the balanced out of V2 with IEMs is very noticeable. Already been prepping with cables and adapters for when my V2+ arrives.

With EC Super 7 there was a slight bit of difference but not as noticeable. Just a slightly bigger headstage on the Super 7 (which had the 4-pin XLR for convenience like the BW and because it is a better connector with no shorting on input/removal). After that testing (which someone else confirmed on my unit), I decided to just use 4-pin whenever possible.

I didn't really bother to compare on the Balancing Act that I can remember.
For the Black Widow, when I get it back I can do some switching- not sure how noticeable it is.

 

^Right- both Super 7 and BW just provide 4-pin output for convenience and because it is a better connector. Not balanced amps.

Even then, the Super 7 4-Pin XLR out sounded slightly bigger in headstage- so I preferred it.

 

Okay, then let me ask another way...What are the best/most recommended truly balanced amps for the Sennheiser trio? Assuming Gungnir Multibit as the DAC. I'm assuming Balancing Act for no-holds-barred, Mojo 2 for value/price-to-performance?

Thanks for the responses! It really seems like it is more along the lines of a "nice to have" kind of thing, as I figured. But I'm just trying to figure out the lineup.

 

I bet this has more to do with power to the headphone (2x, right?) than it has anything to do with topology.

Some headphones do better with more power, some don't care, some get worse. The 650/800 I think do better with power, the ortho's vary less I bet (except the crazy HE-6)

 

yea that's an excellent point, the bigger question is Amp A or Amp B, an from time to time you may find that Amp A is balanced an B is SE, so the differance isn't the termination but the overall design of the Amplifier it self. There are Balanced Amps that sound bad, an SE amps that sound AMAZING, because ofc each is engineered differnetly

for my tastes, I have an Audio GD NFB10ES2, though I'm looking into possibly Getting Mister X to build me a M^3 [MCubed] after diggin up some info on how phenominal it sounds! For the sake of reviews it's hard to compare a new headphone with the SE out of my NFB10ES2 to one of my Refferances running off Balanced Out. For my amp the Balanced out sounds better, hence the need to swap into a balanced Cable.

 

Depends on what you mean by "truly balanced." While some amps simply output a single ended signal (L, R, and shared ground) to a 4 pin jack (akin to a balanced to se adapter), you can also pull a "true balanced" output from a single ended input, 2 channel amp, through the use of center-tapped output transformers (a topology employed by both bottlehead and dna). Then there are the traditional differential/push-pull amps which take balanced inputs (or create them from se inputs) and employ four active channels (such that R+ and R- and L+ and L- respectively carry signals of opposite polarity), to cancel out common mode distortion. This also doubles slew rate and increases power 4x, but increases output impedance and certain other distortions (e.g., I believe odd order harmonics from the gain stages don't cancel - and with the elimination of even order harmonics, odd becomes more prevalent in the signal?). Then there are the bridged designs that are sometimes passed off as balanced but are really just two se amps stuck together (fail).

We broached this topic in a thread a while back when SBAF first started up, and Doug (ECP) chimed in with a wonderful explanation that helped clear up a number of my misimpressions about the various alternate topologies. You might start with my post here and read through the end of the thread to get a better handle on this: http://www.superbestaudiofriends.or...r-hd800-650s-maybe-some-planars.58/#post-1747

Bottom line - amp topology is all important, and cabling and connector type (except for very long runs, like in telecom) is of minimal importance except to the extent necessary to take advantage of the best inputs and outputs of certain sources and amps.