Handsy Fivesome in Home Office with Nerd and Four Hot Amps (A Comparison)

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by Hands, Jul 17, 2016.

  1. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    @Psalmanazar Your experiences may differ from mine for a variety of reasons, but now that I understand better what you mean, in terms of most to least nimble in bass:

    Black Diamond -> Mjolnir 2/Super 7 -> Black Window

    Black widow was about as nimble sounding, probably a bit better, as my highly modded Crack w/ specific tube selection. I have no idea what a less modded Crack would sound like.

    Solid state usually sounds more nimble to me in the bass than most tubes, but not always. The question is whether they have the right muscle to the sound. Black Diamond lacked some muscle, as I mentioned, but damn was it pretty focused and fast from top to bottom.

    The Mjo2 and Super 7 were pretty close to me, with some areas better than others between the two. In general, the Mjo2 could stop on a dime in the bass (you could literally feel the driver moving quickly with bass drum), but layering ultimately got in the way of making it easy to pinpoint things on the stage. That's not to say it was horrible with layering, just didn't have that same 3D feel as the S7, nor does that mean the S7 wasn't also quick. As I mentioned, I have the S7 modded and rolled to reach a sound similar to an uber-Black Widow, but it's a f'ing phenomenal amp that responds to a variety of mods and tube rolling. So, take note that I'm only reviewing it as I have it setup.

    @UpstateGuy Sure, tubes eventually go out, but that's usually after thousands or tens of thousands of hours, AFAIK. Don't capacitors too have a usable lifespan? A lot of guys picking up vintage DACs from the 90s end up swapping out caps, for example (and tube rolling is sure easier than that!). Fact of the matter is that all components eventually deteriorate, and whether or not that means they sound noticeably worse, it's still a factor. I personally don't let that get in my way of greater sonic enjoyment in the moment (unless, of course, an amp would only last me an hour, which would then not be worth it).

    It could be that the tube amp received a bit more love over time than the SS counterpart, thus why it might have deteriorated more. ;)

    I would be curious if you could attend a meet, try out some gear, and report back. Most curious to see what you'd think of some of the tube amps from Eddie Current. I'll see if I can't find a way to try the amps you mentioned someday.
     
  2. UpstateGuy

    UpstateGuy New

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    I'm going to have to read this a few more times but I don't agree with you about the GS-X. I think it's one of the most neutral amps you can get and it has plenty of power. Not thin, nor harsh nor full of glare. What it doesn't add to the source material is the tube induced harmonics that fatten up and romanticize the sound of some tube amps.

    But I think I finally understand what you're saying don't agree with the reasons for it. I don't think it's a function of amplifier power, I think it's a function of generated harmonics, that thicken the sound.

    Anyway, I'm currently looking for an amp with that "fatter" sound myself . Maybe a Black Widow, if one becomes available before my interest is distracted by something else.
     
  3. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

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    Who is Nate? What's on the top and middle shelves in the picture you linked?
     
  4. philipmorgan

    philipmorgan Member of the month

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    @Hands Did you listen to the Mojo2 via SE or balanced in and out?
     
  5. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    @UpstateGuy That's fine. Some disagree with me on the GSX-Mk2, and some agree. I wouldn't worry about it. I can only report that relative to almost any SS amp I've heard, it was about the most etched thing around, from the 2-3 different headphones I tried on it. I will admit it had good power, was fast, and had a relatively neutral tone, but boy was it etched, etched, etched.

    I would also like to point out that I have heard several SS amps that are all measurably "transparent," and yet they didn't all sound identical. Some sounded warm and full, some thin and bright, and so on. Similarly, I've heard some tube amps with more distortion than others, and some with surprisingly low distortion, and I still am not sure there's a guaranteed correlation between harmonic distortion and a sense of euphony, fullness, or whatever people assume.

    @philipmorgan Probably wasn't clear enough with my nonsense, but I used balanced in/out when possible. Bought a balanced HD650 cable for the first time just for the Mjo2! I would have to A/B again, but I didn't hear earth shattering differences. Hard to tell since the balanced out was louder.
     
  6. UpstateGuy

    UpstateGuy New

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    Details
    Input Tube Type: NOS 6BZ7 tubes (USA/Canada)
    Quantity: 1 or 2, you choose

    Lifespan: 5,000 hours typ.

    If left on 24/7 like the person on HF said he did, those tubes would have to be changed twice a year.
    If you listen 8 hours a day you'd have to change the tubes every year and 2 thirds.
    But here's where it gets more economical, if you only listen 4 hours a day, you can stretch the constantly deteriorating sound over 3 and a half years.
    |\/|
     
  7. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    Or you could pay $2,999.00 for a hyper-analytical solid-state abomination that comes shipped with a deteriorated sound.
     
  8. UpstateGuy

    UpstateGuy New

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    Now how can they all measure "transparent"? If one sounds brighter than another, there must be measurable high frequency content that accounts for that. If one sounds warmer, there must be some measurable high frequency attenuation or mid bass bloom, or it would sound bright like the other one and so on.

    With tubes, what else can it be other than added distortions? The greater and more varied the harmonic distortions a tube rig adds to the mix, the more euphony, fullness and romance we're going to hear
     
  9. jowls

    jowls Never shitposts (please) - Friend

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    For the love of god, those colours...

    [​IMG]
     
  10. philipmorgan

    philipmorgan Member of the month

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    Cool. Thanks for the clarification! I figured that's what you were getting at with the talk of more and less girthy pokers. :)
     
  11. philipmorgan

    philipmorgan Member of the month

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    Time domain differences maybe?
     
  12. HitmanFluffy

    HitmanFluffy Hoping to see real genitals someday!

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    Last edited: Jul 18, 2016
  13. No_One411

    No_One411 Fired by Jude

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  14. SteelCannon

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    changing caps and tubes etc changes the characteristics and nature of distortion. Some distortion is audible some isn't, some sounds good and some doesn't. All distortion is not created equal.
     
  15. UpstateGuy

    UpstateGuy New

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    That's from a NY headfi meet years ago. The top shelf I presume is the amp section and the second shelf is the power supply for the amp.
    Nate is a DIY headfier from New England who built and brought the unit down for the meet.
     
  16. UpstateGuy

    UpstateGuy New

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    Please explain "Time domain differences"
     
  17. UpstateGuy

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  18. dubiousmike

    dubiousmike Friend

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    @Hands Great thread and write up - really enjoyed it!

    Hey USG - good to see you around these parts! (You knew me as skeptic over on HF, but all my audioforum time these days is spent here.) Although I haven't heard the GS-X (still on the lookout for an opportunity), this general subject is one I have been grappling with off and on, and I don't think it is quite as simple as harmonics thickening the sound. That is likely part of it, depending on the specific amps involved, but of equal import, I believe, are the non-linear and/or disproportionate high order distortions manifested in feedback amps and how they interact, on a case by case basis, with the FR and distortion curves of various phones vis-a-vis the differing sensitivities of different listeners. https://passlabs.com/articles/audio-distortion-and-feedback

    As you may recall, I was impressed with the o2 for a time, and even invested the energy to build and put an agdr booster in mine for much improved slew rate, current, offset etc., but even then, I always hated my o2 (in both stock and modded forms) with hd650's and hd800's, despite loving those headphones various other (primarily tube) amps. With fostex variants, w4's, and even dt880's, I often enjoyed the o2 and still have mine on hand. Part of this is a stanging/voicing issue. Hd650's in particular have what I would describe as a very coherent presentation of multiple voices, as compared to dt880's where individual voices seem more isolated in space and at times, even a little disconnected. The presentation of the o2 seems to compress voicing to my ears, which helps focus the dt880's somewhat but seems to me to compress the hd650's in a bad way. Moreover, there is just something about the o2's trebles that rubs me slightly wrong with Senn 650/800's in particular. I can only assume that it is some sort of non-linear distortion product, per the Pass article, that I, and many others, appear to find troubling with these particular headphones. Compounding the problem, the o2's deep bass, to me, is also a little anemic - which agdr has discussed at length on diyaudio and ultimately added a very minor bass boost to address in his ODA implementation.

    For a long time, I assumed I just didn't really like hd650's/800's with feedback amps - although some were less objectionable to me than others. Then, only a few weeks ago, I completed my Wire Se Se build and to my astonishment (having assumed it would sound basically identical to my o2 given the measurements), I found that the Wire sounds fantastic to me driving hd650's, th-x00's and pretty much everything else I've thrown at it. In fact, as strange as it sounds, in many ways I would say that the Wire is closer to my Mainline than my o2 - because it lacks, to my ears, what I associate with the term "solid state nasties" - although it certainly doesn't manifest any added tube warmth, bloom or added harmonics either. Hats off to OPC. That said, it would not surprise me at all if some other listener, with slightly different hearing from my own, fired up my Wire and pronounced that they hear it completely differently.

    As a final unrelated comment, small signal tubes like those used in the mainline tend to have a 15k+ hour lifespan and cost $12/ea. Pick up a few pairs, and you will need to worry about caps long before you have to worry about tubes.
    \/
     
  19. UpstateGuy

    UpstateGuy New

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    Hey, how are you doing...... I can't find much to discuss on headfi either. Do you still have an active account there or have you been banned?

    You built a wire, how cool is that! I just took a look at your build on diyaudio and it looks very nice.
     
  20. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

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    Reading material for this evening. From the pic, it looks like he mounted an isolation transformer on power chassis, and I was just debating other day whether that'd be something worth doing...
     

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