Handsy Fivesome in Home Office with Nerd and Four Hot Amps (A Comparison)

Hands · Jul 19, 2016

UpstateGuy said: ↑

Now how can they all measure "transparent"? If one sounds brighter than another, there must be measurable high frequency content that accounts for that. If one sounds warmer, there must be some measurable high frequency attenuation or mid bass bloom, or it would sound bright like the other one and so on.

With tubes, what else can it be other than added distortions? The greater and more varied the harmonic distortions a tube rig adds to the mix, the more euphony, fullness and romance we're going to hear
Click to expand...

I recommend you create your own thread after this post of mine if you want to be the next guy to run through this discussion with this community, for which I've lost track how many times this same conversation has popped up, but I will humor you for now in hopes that we can get this thread back on track.

Unfortunately, no, known measurements do not always show measurable differences that would account for subjectively heard, and sometimes blind tested, differences.

That's not to say there will be absolutely zero differences in measurements to speak of, but the problems commonly encountered include:

A) The differences would fly in the face of being audible (i.e. too small of a difference OR something like the difference between 0.00002% and 0.000002% THD), which would then bring into question if all these claims of "audibly transparent" have any accuracy and merit to begin with.

B) The measured differences have no known correlation with what we hear.

I think the most enlightening experience I had was comparing my O2 with the UHA-6S Mk2. I can't find measurements online for the latter anymore, but I did find a website a few years back that had comparisons, and all criteria for both devices measured under the "audibly transparent" umbrella (again, not my preferred phrase, but one commonly used). So why did they clearly sound different in back-to-back listening tests? There was absolutely nothing in the comparison measurements where I could point out and go, "Oh, it must be that right there."

Assuming that, "If you hear a difference, there must be a measurable difference," or, "What else could it be other than distortion? (for tubes)," is a bit naive and puts too much faith in measurements. If a tube amp sounds "euphonic," but has incredibly low distortion, below what humans are supposedly able to hear, how are we sure it's the distortion causing that particular quality? If we have to re-evaluate the limits of human hearing, then we'd have to re-evaluate the blind assumption that harmonic distortion from tubes is absolutely and always the cause for a more euphonic sound. Remember, human hearing is not fully understood yet, and commonly used measurements are rudimentary. In no way do they capture every possible measurable aspect in all scenarios. They are simple and usually static. Not only are we likely missing aspects we could measure (might not have the necessary tools in existence yet), we can't say with absolutely certainty how and if everything we can measure correlates to what we hear.

On top of that, I've heard enough tube amps to know that a good tube amp will present a 3D, layered stage and a sense of resolving, detailed clarity that you can almost never find in solid state. I thought this was the most asinine, bullshit claim until I heard it for myself. How could tubes be both more pleasing to listen to and dig deeper into the music if they're measurably inferior? Clearly something else is at play. Do we have a way to measure it and correlate? Clearly it's not as simple as distortion so...no, we probably don't have that shit figured out.

All measurements can do is tell us if something is horribly broken (on paper). There's a very high bar where the threshold turns from, "OK, might not measure as good as other pieces of gear, but does it sound better?"

I used to doubt like you until I kept listening to more and more pieces of gear.

UpstateGuy said: ↑

Details
Input Tube Type: NOS 6BZ7 tubes (USA/Canada)
Quantity: 1 or 2, you choose
Lifespan: 5,000 hours typ.

If left on 24/7 like the person on HF said he did, those tubes would have to be changed twice a year.
If you listen 8 hours a day you'd have to change the tubes every year and 2 thirds.
But here's where it gets more economical, if you only listen 4 hours a day, you can stretch the constantly deteriorating sound over 3 and a half years.
$|\/|$
Click to expand...

A) That's one type of tube
B) Anyone that leaves a tube amp on 24/7 is probably a complete idiot
C) If you listen to 8 hours a day, you're probably old and retired and could use a nasty, bright SS amp to make up for your natural loss of hearing (unfortunately, this is a sad fact of aging, and not meant as a jab)
D) If you listen for 4 hours a day, you're probably getting much more enjoyment from your tube amp and would find it more than worthwhile to buy a new set of tubes when their life ends. I am looking at my amp that takes 7 6SN7 tubes and would still rather re-up on tubes every few years than go full SS.
E) Realistically, I have a lot of stuff going on in life and can only manage an average of 1 hour of listening a day. My tubes will probably last me a decade or so.
F) Tubes don't have to be expensive to sound good.
G) Everything degrades eventually. Again, unless we're talking about spending $1K on an amp that will burn through tubes in a matter of single-digit hours, you might as well avoid enjoying anything in life. It will all deteriorate eventually. Everyone dies. The only way to avoid suffering is to be detached from everything.

k4rstar · Jul 19, 2016

Hands said: ↑

G) Everything degrades eventually. Again, unless we're talking about spending $1K on an amp that will burn through tubes in a matter of single-digit hours, you might as well avoid enjoying anything in life. It will all deteriorate eventually. Everyone dies. The only way to avoid suffering is to be detached from everything.
Click to expand...

No, but seriously, I had a similar revelation when upgrading from the O2 to the Project Polaris. I had many an objectivist tell me I was wasting my time and money to not be able to tell any audible different in the end.

Needless to say I am no longer a doubter and I've even dropped the awfully misguided notion that all tube amps are gooey distortion-oozing machines. Thanks for making my morning though.

gurubhai · Jul 19, 2016

Guess solid state isn't immune to age either.

Psalmanazar · Jul 19, 2016

Laptop/Receiver/DJ mixer jacks -> O2 (Why does this sound so f'ing terrible compared to RealTek?) -> Magni 2U (Infinitely better) -> Asgard 2 (much better driver control, staging, and no feedback steel)

None of the tube amps I heard within my headphone amp budget (under $1000) really did it for me, including the Schiit ones with stock tubes.

Azteca · Jul 19, 2016

What a great aesthetic.

schiit · Jul 19, 2016

gurubhai said: ↑

View attachment 4267

Guess solid state isn't immune to age either.
Click to expand...

Yep, but to be fair, most stuff isn't run anywhere near to max temp (105 degrees C in the caps you are referencing). If you want to have some fun, here are some capacitor lifetime calculators:

http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/products/lifetime/snap_in.html?sr=LGY
http://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/tech-center/life-calculators.aspx

Some time spent with those will teach you two things:

1. The idiots bleating about "heat is the enemy and terrible things will happen if your electronics run hot" are usually, well, idiots. Even when run damn hot (translation: 45 degrees C, which is what the Asgard 2 runs at, and a temperature some people of a hyperbolic bent say they need "oven mitts" for.) Even 85 degree caps run at 45 degrees C (actually less, 45 degrees is the chassis temp) last for 60K hours (or more.)

2. Electrolytic capacitors, in typical applications, are even more durable. More conservatively run electronics (even 35-40 degrees C, which some people still complain about being "too hot") are well over 100K on capacitor life. In storage (or off) at 20-25 degrees C, you're looking at hundreds of thousands of hours. And electrolytic capacitor life is usually the limiting factor in electronics.

That said, most tubes, when run conservatively as small-signal tubes (translation: 60% or less of rated plate dissipation, below max plate voltage, etc) will last a whole lot longer than 5000 hours. We're just very conservative. Of course, when tubes go, they take all of about 10 seconds to replace, which can't be said for capacitors.

The big elephant in the room is lead-free solder lifespan. Any piece of electronics that has any hope of being sold in Europe uses lead-free solder. And lead-free solder is not as durable as the old leaded solder. Period. End of story. How long will it last before it starts growing tin whiskers and shorting every part of the board? Unknown. May be 10 years, may be 7 years, may be 20 years...but the bottom line is, we don't really know.

So, as Hands stated so elegantly...everything ages and dies. That's the way it is. Tubes are a minor annoyance, since they're designed to be easily replaced. Capacitors and circuit boards, not so much.

TMoney · Jul 19, 2016

Nice review, @Hands!

Can I ask at approximately what volume level you listen at? I have a suspicion that part of why my subjective impressions don't match up with yours is that I listen at a lower volume level than you do.

gurubhai · Jul 19, 2016

schiit said: ↑

Yep, but to be fair, most stuff isn't run anywhere near to max temp (105 degrees C in the caps you are referencing).
Click to expand...

Indeed. I quoted that fact selectively because the other poster neglected to include the tube dissipation values in his 'age' calculations as well. No doubt both tubes and capacitors would last longer in most practical amplifiers.

philipmorgan · Jul 19, 2016

@Hands: I'm also curious what tubes the Mojo2 was running. Since it's @jexby 's I'm guessing not stock and maybe Heerlen's, but would love to know for sure.

Hands · Jul 19, 2016

TMoney said: ↑

Nice review, @Hands!

Can I ask at approximately what volume level you listen at? I have a suspicion that part of why my subjective impressions don't match up with yours is that I listen at a lower volume level than you do.
Click to expand...

I think somewhere in the 85dB range, give or take a few dB? Kinda varies...sometimes I crank it closer to 90dB for particular listening tests, sometimes closer to 80dB. Not at all scientific, though...just an educated guess based on a dB meter and basic coupler playing music.

philipmorgan said: ↑

@Hands: I'm also curious what tubes the Mojo2 was running. Since it's @jexby 's I'm guessing not stock and maybe Heerlen's, but would love to know for sure.
Click to expand...

Yeah, not stock. Should be Heerlen something or other...I still need to try stock. I thought I mentioned I used the non-stock tubes?

philipmorgan · Jul 19, 2016

Hands said: ↑

I thought I mentioned I used the non-stock tubes?
Click to expand...

You did. I guess my real question is how much tubes change the mojo2 sound signature. I'm sure it's a lot if the tubes are shitty, but anyway... this is probably a question for the mojo2 thread, not this one.

I'll be interested in hearing your impression of the stock tubes.

TMoney · Jul 19, 2016

Hands said: ↑

I think somewhere in the 85dB range, give or take a few dB? Kinda varies...sometimes I crank it closer to 90dB for particular listening tests, sometimes closer to 80dB. Not at all scientific, though...just an educated guess based on a dB meter and basic coupler playing music.
Click to expand...

Interesting. I'm usually 65-75dB also measured in a similarly unscientific fashion. One of my pet theories is that people who listen louder than I do tend to prefer a darker sound. The plural of "anecdote" is not "data," but there may be something there.

Hands · Jul 19, 2016

You're probably right. My impressions of gear can change a good amount at lower volumes. Pretty sure it's that silly equal-loudness contour thing going on. That and, you know, knives are less painful when tiny.

jexby · Jul 19, 2016

philipmorgan said: ↑

@Hands: I'm also curious what tubes the Mojo2 was running. Since it's @jexby 's I'm guessing not stock and maybe Heerlen's, but would love to know for sure.
Click to expand...

La Radiotechnique Professional E88CC
7308
Manufactured in Holland, Large O getter

Bough via Brent Jesse years ago.

Thenewerguy009 · Jul 19, 2016

UpstateGuy said: ↑

Details
Input Tube Type: NOS 6BZ7 tubes (USA/Canada)
Quantity: 1 or 2, you choose
Lifespan: 5,000 hours typ.

If left on 24/7 like the person on HF said he did, those tubes would have to be changed twice a year.
If you listen 8 hours a day you'd have to change the tubes every year and 2 thirds.
But here's where it gets more economical, if you only listen 4 hours a day, you can stretch the constantly deteriorating sound over 3 and a half years.
$|\/|$
Click to expand...

This is true for people who listen to their system everyday for hours on end. Honestly, how many times a week do you listen to your system & for how many hours in those days?

I'm lucky to get 2 or 3 hours of free time to listen to my setup in a day, out of maybe 2 days out of the week. There is also the cost of tubes, a lot of them are dirt cheap. $10-$20 are nothing to replace. Unless you buy the ultra high end ones that go for $2,000 NOS, then that could be a problem.

Thenewerguy009 · Jul 19, 2016

schiit said: ↑

The big elephant in the room is lead-free solder lifespan. Any piece of electronics that has any hope of being sold in Europe uses lead-free solder. And lead-free solder is not as durable as the old leaded solder. Period. End of story. How long will it last before it starts growing tin whiskers and shorting every part of the board? Unknown. May be 10 years, may be 7 years, may be 20 years...but the bottom line is, we don't really know.
Click to expand...

You just put me off from buying anything from Europe.

UpstateGuy · Jul 19, 2016

Hands said: ↑

I recommend you create your own thread after this post of mine if you want to be the next guy to run through this discussion with this community, for which I've lost track how many times this same conversation has popped up, but I will humor you for now in hopes that we can get this thread back on track.

Unfortunately, no, known measurements do not always show measurable differences that would account for subjectively heard, and sometimes blind tested, differences.

That's not to say there will be absolutely zero differences in measurements to speak of, but the problems commonly encountered include:

A) The differences would fly in the face of being audible (i.e. too small of a difference OR something like the difference between 0.00002% and 0.000002% THD), which would then bring into question if all these claims of "audibly transparent" have any accuracy and merit to begin with.

B) The measured differences have no known correlation with what we hear.

I think the most enlightening experience I had was comparing my O2 with the UHA-6S Mk2. I can't find measurements online for the latter anymore, but I did find a website a few years back that had comparisons, and all criteria for both devices measured under the "audibly transparent" umbrella (again, not my preferred phrase, but one commonly used). So why did they clearly sound different in back-to-back listening tests? There was absolutely nothing in the comparison measurements where I could point out and go, "Oh, it must be that right there."

Assuming that, "If you hear a difference, there must be a measurable difference," or, "What else could it be other than distortion? (for tubes)," is a bit naive and puts too much faith in measurements. If a tube amp sounds "euphonic," but has incredibly low distortion, below what humans are supposedly able to hear, how are we sure it's the distortion causing that particular quality? If we have to re-evaluate the limits of human hearing, then we'd have to re-evaluate the blind assumption that harmonic distortion from tubes is absolutely and always the cause for a more euphonic sound. Remember, human hearing is not fully understood yet, and commonly used measurements are rudimentary. In no way do they capture every possible measurable aspect in all scenarios. They are simple and usually static. Not only are we likely missing aspects we could measure (might not have the necessary tools in existence yet), we can't say with absolutely certainty how and if everything we can measure correlates to what we hear.

On top of that, I've heard enough tube amps to know that a good tube amp will present a 3D, layered stage and a sense of resolving, detailed clarity that you can almost never find in solid state. I thought this was the most asinine, bullshit claim until I heard it for myself. How could tubes be both more pleasing to listen to and dig deeper into the music if they're measurably inferior? Clearly something else is at play. Do we have a way to measure it and correlate? Clearly it's not as simple as distortion so...no, we probably don't have that shit figured out.

All measurements can do is tell us if something is horribly broken (on paper). There's a very high bar where the threshold turns from, "OK, might not measure as good as other pieces of gear, but does it sound better?"

I used to doubt like you until I kept listening to more and more pieces of gear.

A) That's one type of tube
B) Anyone that leaves a tube amp on 24/7 is probably a complete idiot
C) If you listen to 8 hours a day, you're probably old and retired and could use a nasty, bright SS amp to make up for your natural loss of hearing (unfortunately, this is a sad fact of aging, and not meant as a jab)
D) If you listen for 4 hours a day, you're probably getting much more enjoyment from your tube amp and would find it more than worthwhile to buy a new set of tubes when their life ends. I am looking at my amp that takes 7 6SN7 tubes and would still rather re-up on tubes every few years than go full SS.
E) Realistically, I have a lot of stuff going on in life and can only manage an average of 1 hour of listening a day. My tubes will probably last me a decade or so.
F) Tubes don't have to be expensive to sound good.
G) Everything degrades eventually. Again, unless we're talking about spending $1K on an amp that will burn through tubes in a matter of single-digit hours, you might as well avoid enjoying anything in life. It will all deteriorate eventually. Everyone dies. The only way to avoid suffering is to be detached from everything.
Click to expand...

Ahoy matey!
Wow, giant subjective post.
So OK....
I have no interest in creating a thread or arguing this point.
I have heard the same things you have but I have a different understanding.
I think human hearing is very well understood.
I believe that if you hear something it can be recorded and measured.
I believe that if you hear a "difference" there is a program that can isolate it.
I believe you can record and measure sound far beyond the limits of human hearing.
I know that the "sound" of any tube amplifier can be reproduced by a solid state amplifier.
So let's just agree to disagree.

Btw, which UHA-6S Mk2 measurements where you looking for?
I don't know if it's helpful but I found a some here:

Leckerton UHA-6S mkII measurements - CHANGSTAR
www.changstar.com/www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2462.0.html

and here:

UHA-6S.MKII User Guide - Leckerton Audio
https://leckerton-audio.squarespace.com/s/UHA-6S-MKII_User_Guide.pdf

FlySweep · Jul 19, 2016

UpstateGuy said: ↑

Ahoy matey!
Wow, giant subjective post.
So OK....
I have no interest in creating a thread or arguing this point.
I have heard the same things you have but I have a different understanding.
I think human hearing is very well understood.
I believe that if you hear something it can be recorded and measured.
I believe that if you hear a "difference" there is a program that can isolate it.
I believe you can record and measure sound far beyond the limits of human hearing.
I know that the "sound" of any tube amplifier can be reproduced by a solid state amplifier.
So let's just agree to disagree.

Btw, which UHA-6S Mk2 measurements where you looking for?
I don't know if it's helpful but I found a some here:

Leckerton UHA-6S mkII measurements - CHANGSTAR
www.changstar.com/www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2462.0.html

and here:

UHA-6S.MKII User Guide - Leckerton Audio
https://leckerton-audio.squarespace.com/s/UHA-6S-MKII_User_Guide.pdf
Click to expand...

jowls · Jul 20, 2016

UpstateGuy said: ↑

Ahoy matey!
Wow, giant subjective post.
So OK....
I have no interest in creating a thread or arguing this point.
I have heard the same things you have but I have a different understanding.
I think human hearing is very well understood.
I believe that if you hear something it can be recorded and measured.
I believe that if you hear a "difference" there is a program that can isolate it.
I believe you can record and measure sound far beyond the limits of human hearing.
I know that the "sound" of any tube amplifier can be reproduced by a solid state amplifier.
So let's just agree to disagree.

Btw, which UHA-6S Mk2 measurements where you looking for?
I don't know if it's helpful but I found a some here:

Leckerton UHA-6S mkII measurements - CHANGSTAR
www.changstar.com/www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2462.0.html

and here:

UHA-6S.MKII User Guide - Leckerton Audio
https://leckerton-audio.squarespace.com/s/UHA-6S-MKII_User_Guide.pdf
Click to expand...

This is a thread about @Hands subjective impressions of four amps. GTFO with this objective rainbow bullshit. There are other places you can have that circular, never ending discussion.

Ash1412 · Jul 20, 2016

UpstateGuy said: ↑

I know that the "sound" of any tube amplifier can be reproduced by a solid state amplifier.
Click to expand...

Handsy Fivesome in Home Office with Nerd and Four Hot Amps (A Comparison)

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