Holo Audio - Spring DAC - Level 3 - "Kitsune Tuned Edition" - Impressions & Reviews

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by Torq, Nov 7, 2016.

  1. songmic

    songmic Gear cycler East Asia edition

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    So to put things simply, am I to understand that Gungnir Multibit is overall the better DAC for speaker listening?
     
  2. Thenewerguy009

    Thenewerguy009 Friend

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    Didn't you prefer it slightly over the Yiggy as well?
     
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Since this is obvious attempt to troll - all of the indications are there.
    1. You are a moron. Multi-bit topologies like R2R or hybrid R2R / 2R are incapable of dealing with one-bit. There needs to be conversion of DSD to PCM in hardware. The "native DSD" aspect refers to the USB method of transport where DoP, DSD over a PCM wrapper, isn't used. The designer of the Holo has said already made this clear. You can ask him yourself. He actually didn't think people would be that stupid thinking R2R can natively process DSD.
    2. Who or what is this Computer Audiophile? With all due respect, is this person or entity something I should be concerned about? Like the Pope, the POTUS, or the Buddha?
    3. Please read the guidelines in the TOS and introduce yourself. Maybe even get a feel for this place before your first post.
     
  4. TwoEars

    TwoEars Friend

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    @Marvey

    I'd think even a troll would know how to use quoting properly. But "moron"? Not going to defend that one. Could be a drunk though...
     
  5. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Evil Dr. Shultz‎

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    To be fair, their website is outright lying then. Can you quote a source that contradicts this:

    "HOLO Audio is the world’s first to support DSD natively on R2R DAC, so far the only one. This is not the DSD converted to PCM before digital-analog converter, but directly by the discrete components of the DSD digital to analog converter."

    "4: OS DSD mode: in either PCM or DSD the data will be oversampled to DSD and then digital is converted to analog."

    Both found here.
     
  6. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I preferred the Gungnir Multibit on both speakers and headphones. The resolution advantage on headphones and soundstage advantage on speakers were significant. Not to mention the microdynamics and immediacy, which were the ultimate decider.

    A lot is going to hinge on source / transport, capabilities of amp and tranducers.

    I kept the SFD-1 on hand for so long for this reason. I wouldn't say that the SFD-1 had more depth, but that the stage was set further away. Instead of 15 feet in front, it was like 30 feet in front. The depth of the stage and front to back layering was almost as good, 80% of the Yggdrasil. But as you mentioned the SFD-1 rendering was more diffuse, less precise, and in my case, the images were less stable and tended to waver. I do miss the SFD-1, but something had to go to help pay for the Classic 4.
     
  7. landroni

    landroni Friend

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    I would be inclined to give the manufacturer the benefit of the doubt on grounds of... language. If you want really broken English, check out Audio GD.

    What I suspect the promo materials mean is that this is the first R2R DAC that handles DSD "natively", as in doesn't require upstream conversion to PCM. (I won't vouch for this, and from memory the Soekris boards also do DSD, so either way this statement is misleading and/or the manufacturer did a really poor job at due diligence.)
     
  8. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Evil Dr. Shultz‎

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    They're actively targeting the US market...this is essentially fraud in that case and they will come unstuck with consumer protection. It's not really a quaint oversight. If anyone is on personal terms with them, maybe a heads-up is in order.
     
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    In a resistor ladder, each rung of the ladder corresponds to a bit in the codeword. Each rung corresponds to a certain voltage output. For a 16-bit ladder, this amounts to 2^16 = 65336 discrete levels per sample. Think 16 different sized cups. The combinations of which gives us this range of outputs.

    DSD is one bit which works differently. It's like having a bunch of tiny cups, all the same size, dumping their shit, accumulating it into a leaky pitcher. It's the amount in the leaky pitcher at any one time that determines the output level. The only way for this to work is for a much much much faster sampling rate than the PCM to get the same audio bandwidth.
     
  10. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Evil Dr. Shultz‎

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    Not arguing the truth of what you're saying, I get how PCM vs DSD works and why R2R can't process it (unless they really do have some funky shit going on). Few consumers probably do, though, and regardless this is still false advertising. if some nob wants to rip all their vinyl to DSD despite the flaws and buys this as the end-game DSD decoder, their nob-ness is irrelevant. No-one 'needs' a V8, but if I want it, and you say the car you're selling has it, I get to sue you if you're lying. And win.
     
  11. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    MSB R2R DACS also do DSD, but they convert in hardware / firmware. Whether this can be considered "native" is a matter of debate and one that I do not wish to partake in.

    All I know is that R2R or 2R architectures are fundamentally different from one-bit sigma delta accumulators and comparators.

    In the end, it is of no consequence for 99% of people. I don't listen to or seek boutique DSD recordings, DSD digital mastering requires conversion of DSD to PCM, and then back to DSD, and most of my recordings, like 99.9% are in PCM. I have also found most SACD masters of yesteryear not to my liking. And the ones I do like have been ripped to 24/88 for the sake of convenience.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2016
  12. MuppetFace

    MuppetFace Sultana of Seafoam Green - Moderator

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    Glad I just got the SFD-1 instead of paying more for the Holo.

    Though I'm still curious about the Pavane.
     
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Heh, DSD is not a V8. It's more like a rotary that runs on vegetable waste oil obtained from a hippy commune in Santa Cruz.

    A V8 actually provides very noticeable performance gains over I4, V6, etc.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2016
  14. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Evil Dr. Shultz‎

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    Maybe, more like an S2k with a centrifugal supercharger that only comes on in the last ear-piercing 2000rpm :). At least the Rotary has some finesse. :p

    [Edit] When the f'ing lobe seals are working and none of the 50 odd vacuum hoses have popped off. The 3rd gen RX-7 was a sexy, bratty bitch.
     
  15. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Thanks.
    Now that I think of it, SFD-1 might not have had any stage extention to behind.
    Anyways you probably ran your dacs from better CDP than the Sonic Frontiers one.
    Most of my Yggdrasil impressions are from USB anyways ,which is weaker than simple CDP like the SFD.

    Serious interest for the Holo has faded now from my part.
    I was hoping it was 'super Soekris', but the soundstage description surely doesn't make it look like one.
     
  16. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Menuet and Pavane sound much more similar to the Spring than not, though they do have their differences. Non-oversampling has a very particular sound to it. In other words, stick the Pavane and Spring in the same room as the Gungnir Multibit/Yggdrasil and SFD-1, and you'll easily be able to categorize them into two groups. I also believe you heard the Hex a while back, right? I think the Spring and new-gen Metrum DACs totally wipe the floor compared to first-gen Metrum DACs, if you at all felt positive towards the Hex.

    Side note to everyone, I would encourage anyone that is interested to try the Spring or Menuet/Pavane if able. I know some of you have NOS experience, some which may have been with really shitty NOS DACs, and some without experience at all. It's interesting to get a feel for NOS at least. I personally can't say I heard everything the same way Marv did, and while I feel relatively confident in my hearing, I don't have the same rig (namely speakers), I don't listen to the same music, I'm not the same person, and I have different tastes and an affinity towards non-oversampling. So, give it a shot. Maybe you'll feel the same way, maybe not. Only one way to find out, and loaners are a great shot at that.

    Random side note regarding stage, for headphone listening, I think the Jotun is more likely to reduce depth and add a forward character than the Spring DAC. Paired with the Super 7 and HD650 or modded Elear, stage depth and layering seems quite good, just a bit behind something like the Gungnir Multibit of SFD, to a point I am not concerned. YMMV. (I think eventually with good enough transducers, DACs and amps start to play more of an equal role in affecting sound.)

    Of course, Gungnir Multibit is the 800lb value gorilla in the room. Can't ignore that. If you aren't a NOS guy or gal, which most aren't, your purchasing choice is pretty damn clear. But for loaners, it's a chance to try random shit out. Never know what you might find!

    If you are not super picking about oversampling methods, the Spring does oversampling if you want it. On paper, specs suggest it would be like a super Soekris. Or there's always software upsampling if you use PC. Decent chance to try a good NOS DAC if you aren't familiar. Usual spiel on my end.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2016
  17. sphinxvc

    sphinxvc Gear Master (retired)

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    That was an important point to make, thanks Ravi. While I appreciate the information that's there and clear, would also appreciate not having to read between the lines. Apart from that, thanks for the content and effort, @Marvey.
     
  18. Jh4db536

    Jh4db536 Friend

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    So I thought about how the below logic can be possible and this is what i came up with:

    Marvey's Gungnir Multibit is obviously operating at a higher level than Some of ours Gumbys. In fact, it's at a higher level than Some of our Yggdrasil's - most specifically ones that are plugged into USB, Rednets, off the shelf cdp, and Defuckifiers.



    Running Gungnir Multibit off USB, means you're only attaining 60 to 75% of its potential. Running Yggdrasil off USB (and/or other defuckifiers) means it's operating at a level that is probably lower than the inherent (apples to apples) differences between Gungnir Multibit and Yggdrasil (98.68% and 97.6%). Running a Yggdrasil with an off the shelf CDP (that's not theta - because it's better) means you could be achieving less than 100% potential, but it might be operating higher than Gungnir Multibit with the same upstream by 1.4%-2.32%.

    Of course we should not forget the other caveats and qualifications:

    • Unicorn Marantz5004 CDP - i'm pretty sure there's some top secret mods in there that he forgot to mention. This is not the off the shelf from best buy obviously ;). My ERC-3 does not match the level of his Marantz obviously, but it's far better than USB. i might need to add a silver core Power Transformer in mine to bridge some of that gap.
    • Special Toslink Cable - we should mention that Marv has a unicorn custom made optical cable in the chain here that no one else can buy and was hand selected against approximately 25 other cables. Yeah that makes a difference.
    • Unicorn edition Gungnir Multibit. NDA signed.
    • Synergistic bonus points (ultra combo). I'm sure the above setup was utilized upstream of the holodac as well, but the benefits work best on Gumbys. It could even be to the holodac's determent up to 25 to 40%.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2016
  19. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Well, I did sneak a listen with the HD650 from my 45 tube amp (it's primarily a speaker amp, but it does have a balanced out headphone jack). Closing my eyes, the Holo rendered headstage was right behind my eyeballs in front of my ears. The Gungnir Multibit headstage was about a few inches to half foot in front of my eyes.

    Well, the price differential should be clear. To be honest, I did assign a handicap to the Holo because it was an NOS DAC. There was a clear preference on my part, but I do still strongly feel this is a good sounding DAC. This is no doubt the best NOS DAC I have heard it. The Holo doesn't have the coloration of the Metrum Quad. It doesn't sound incessantly laid-back like the Hex. It's miles ahead of an MDHT I heard a while back. The soundstage, while being NOS, isn't collapsed into shit, well into the event horizon of a black hole like the AGD M7 (NOS mode) or to a lesser extent the Musette. In other words, with the exception of the NOS soundstage, it sounded normal, and not only that, it displayed a strong sense of energy and excitement. I didn't want to come down too hard on it because like @Hands, I really do think it's worth people investigating it for themselves. With a lot of other DACs, Soekris, cough cough, I'd just tell folks to pass.

    Finally, this is more difficult to qualify. I used to have a category in my old DAC comparisons on overall coherence or "togetherness", and the Holo certainly scores high in this category. This is what I meant by the sum of the parts being greater than the individual parts. The Holo sounds like the designer had a vision of what he wanted to do, not a just random jumble of FOTM buzzword components tossed together producing randomish results: iBasso, Yulong, etc. The importance of this cannot be understated.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2016
  20. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    Connaker is deaf and doesn't know enough about computers to know what's snake oil and what's legitimate. Disregard his reviews as hearsay.


    1. Marantz CDP is not as good as his theta data iii (which I also use).

    2. the Lynx AES PCIe card is close enough to the theta that I can't really tell them apart.

    3. The percentage differences are total finger in the wind made up guesses and shouldn't be taken as actual percentages. Marv is f'ing with you (just like his review was posted to bait me which he does sometimes).
     

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