JudeGate 3? Shut the f*** up Jude.

Discussion in 'Headphone Measurements' started by purr1n, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    May 23, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,842
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    London, UK
    Tyll has previously called on SBAF to develop a standardised DIY rig. I didn’t bring it up because it’s someone else’s time that would make that happen. But selling the thing sounds like a damned fine way to also support the forum, or at least selling some or all of the component parts in a simple DIY kit.

    Yeah, funny as it is it only diminishes the arguments being made in the eyes of others.

    I could just pick you up higher than me :p
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  2. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2017
    Likes Received:
    10,961
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Philippines, The
    @BenjaminBore First of all, the Uber-important bit:
    DAMMIT I hadn't considered people could just pick me up. Back to the Shire to come up with countermeasures!

    As for the measurement rig, I'm not surprised the topic's come up before since it seems like the no-brainer solution to kill two birds with one scone (shush, I'm hungry). I recall OJNeg or someone else had thrown up a schematic and BOM for a DIY measurement rig on here, but my lazy arse just never got around to making one. Also, while fun, troubleshooting the thing and learning how to manage the software involved would have taken quite a bit of time.

    Not quite sure how much it'd cost to produce a small-ish run of measurement boxes (say, a couple hundred to test the waters?) and offer the option to toss in dummy ears, synthetic skin, or eldritch glyphs to ensure optimal accuracy for extra, but I agree it seems like a moderately daunting task, and one that may well take up a great deal of time. The problem doesn't seem to be financing (ORFAS and AKWRP members unite!) so much as it is finding someone with enough time and passion to be able to commit to something like this— I shudder to think of how much work will have to go into ensuring everything's to spec and that all the rigs are uniform in performance.

    Chances of someone like MassDrop coming in to help distribute these majik boxes? Dunno, but the people there seem massively helpful to me, and genuinely enamoured with audio and other fun crap. Definite bonus points for that.
     
  3. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    May 23, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,842
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    London, UK
    I expect actual product development would be beyond the scope of what’s doable. I was thinking much more DIY. Carboard or plastic and damping materials with printed instructions, specific mics purchased elsewhere. Saying that I’d guess a 3D printer might allow for simpler more consistent results. If that path were to be feasible I’d kick in for a 3D printer fund.

    Regarding tall person counter-measures. I suggest arm-pit spikes, and steel toed boots so you can kick them in the knackers once they drop you. Then just throw some sand in their eyes and hide!
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  4. Ziva

    Ziva Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2015
    Likes Received:
    234
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Only if you have your own anechotic chamber in the quietest place on earth...
     
  5. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2017
    Likes Received:
    10,961
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Philippines, The
    ^ As per my egregiously limited understanding of the matter, I'm aware that taking measurements in as noiseless an environment as possible is most revealing of a headphone's performance (particularly in THD and similar criteria), but no people in my acquaintanceship listen to headphones in as well-dampened an enclosure as used by Tyll or Jude for measurements. Heck, IIRC Jude also has a Faraday Cage around his rig? Bit bollocks, but wicked cool regardless.

    Anyway, my own home listening environment averages -40dBA in ambient noise, often higher when my sister is nearby watching Good Mythical Morning or PewDiePie on her phone (I don't dare judge as I also spend more time than I should on YouTube). Point being that although far from perfect, passably-reliable measurements taken by people as indicative of their real-world listening environs may nonetheless prove invaluable data in the long-term, if self-contained within each individual's measurement setting.
     
  6. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2015
    Likes Received:
    14,051
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Has Jude figured out that the time domain exists yet?
     
  7. seersha

    seersha Acquaintance

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    United States
    I definitely agree with you on this. It's sad that people believe the reviews that are put out on that site.
     
  8. Ardacer

    Ardacer Friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2017
    Likes Received:
    986
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Croatia

    Headphones are measured in nearfield, which means at least around 20 db lower relative ambient noise than (quasi)anechoic speaker measurments, even more than RTA. I think. Don't kill me if wrong. Goes even lower if they are sealed. Probably also explains why 10k + measurments are almost useless anyway
     
  9. captkirk

    captkirk Khan's BFF

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2017
    Likes Received:
    1,877
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Sactown-ish
    One thing I want to bring up if SBAF decided to sell a product for the masses:

    When you decide to sell something, you have to acknowledge that you will be dealing with customers.

    Considering some of the whiny-ass fluff we see ALL THE TIME on HF (and y'all have probably experienced this yourself IRL), there would be no shortage for the potential for SBAF to be dealing with that crap.

    Sure, you can try to sell something with no after-sales support, but it never actually works. You will always have to provide Customer Service, and with something technical, including software-based-fuckery, and the "my results don't look like his results" BS, I'd steer clear.

    Let's sell shirts, and hats. I like hats.

    Just a thought, carry-on. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  10. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

    Staff Member Pyrate MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    12,285
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Colorado
    Home Page:
    Jude has transcended worrying about the past or future. There is only the now.
     
  11. DigMe

    DigMe Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2016
    Likes Received:
    8,802
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Tejas
    Did y'all see that Jude did some FFT adjustments in the original post after it was talked about here?


    https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sen...ost-for-summary.795365/page-201#post-13981800
     
  12. Ardacer

    Ardacer Friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2017
    Likes Received:
    986
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Croatia
    power spectral density (PSD) or amplitude spectral density (ASD)

    I'm no physicist, but this is the same thing, no? Basically just a spectrum? Much wow
     
  13. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2016
    Likes Received:
    4,521
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    London, UK


    So that's why @atomicbob posted that lovely visual guide to the importance of FFT binning, or an eerie coincidence?
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  14. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    On the measurement rig: the miniDSP EARS does work, and with the right compensation curve, can arrive at very similar results to Jude's GRAS45AC. The question is how consistent from headphone to headphone to the GRAS / DF compensations. I am already exploring this as we speak.

    I've already worked on a preliminary compensation curve for myself that takes an almost flat line across as the target. You guys have already seen it with the "EARS" frequency response which I post as a supplement to the "V2" flat plate coupler measurements. It would not be that hard for me to get very close to Jude's GRAS and compensations. The primary constraint is lack of data from Jude at this point.

    Sure the miniDSP isn't perfect. There is induced ringing from the ear canal which isn't anywhere as complex as the GRAS45AC. But the fact is, this behavior only adversity influences CSDs, which Jude does not provide anyway. The distortion measurements from the miniDSP EARS look good.

    Instead of SBAF selling a measurement rig, I have already offered to provide calibration curves, maybe even including a Jude curve when it becomes available, for individuals' miniDSP EARs, in exchange for a bottle of good whiskey, scotch, or bourbon.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  15. Elnrik

    Elnrik Super Friendly

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2017
    Likes Received:
    8,973
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Denver CO
    Home Page:
    I own one. I can't remember which closet it is in. It's not so bad comfort wise, except for the clamp. It's as if a new hd650 spent many years training with a thigh master and is hell-bent on squeezing your noggin hard enough to get a peek at what's inside.
     
  16. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Yes, 35db down now, but he's still an idiot. He adjusted FFT window size and sampling rate to match his own other measurements.

    The shady thing is that he is conveniently not being specific on the FFT window length and sampling rate; and unfortunately there is no one smart enough left at HF to call him on it.

    FWIW, the parameters of the FFT for my plot at indicated on the top left.

    Of course this is all misdirection. Noise floor has nothing to do with HD800S harmonic distortion results discussed here and there.

    Oftentimes different headphones, rigs, people, times of day, will get different results. Its just what it is. Jude cannot stand this, he wants to be right and everyone else is wrong.

    I am telling you guys this right now: Jude is very dangerous to the hobby.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  17. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2016
    Likes Received:
    4,521
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    London, UK
    As I said before, he's like those doctors the tobacco industry used to trot out to prove that there was absolutely no problem with smoking. He must be right, look, he's using Science(tm).
     
  18. ButtUglyJeff

    ButtUglyJeff Stunningly beautiful IRL

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2015
    Likes Received:
    2,637
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Holy f**k, this times 1000...
     
  19. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Shortness is state of mind. Inner poverty. It's not physical.
     
  20. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2016
    Likes Received:
    4,521
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    London, UK
    We're also really f'ing uncomfortable on long-haul flights. Let that thought nourish your (tiny) blackened heart.
     

Share This Page