Life after Yggdrasil: Watering the Ash

Are you still doing the Schiit four-way comparison?

 

http://ciamara.com/new-ayre-8-series-components-coming-fall/

What about this new one? The new Ayre QX-8 looks very interesting, and it will be "fair priced", probably under 3k.

 

Yes, but I am, as ever, way behind on everything I want to get done.

The most recent distraction has been the new 64 Audio U18 Tsar and tia Fourté, as well as getting some time with the CA Andromeda. For various reasons those write-ups will get posted ahead of the Schiit multi-bit comparison (for which the listening is done and it's just the write-up I have to finalize).

And there's the Mousai MSD192 write-up to finish too ...

AND the new IEMs I grabbed over lunch to wind into the mix somewhere ...

I am my own worst enemy!

When it's actually shipping I'll add it to the list.

 

Yggdrasil is turning out to be a bigger upgrade than I expected. I was expecting a minor improvement over Bifrost Multibit, and arguably the difference is, except that Yggdrasil washes away another layer of digital sheen/glare/fuzz. It has been less than a full 24hrs, and the Bifrost Multibit still has a very pleasant sound, but ... this is much closer to listening to music vs listening to a reproduction of music.

Thanks for this thread Torq. It was one of the threads that resulted in me taking the leap and trying Yggdrasil for myself.

 

Question, and not that it should make much difference at home where cable runs are short, but does the Yggdrasil->Mjolnir 2 connection take advantage of the benefits of differential signaling (i.e., common noise rejection?) or is this purely a balanced design?

I doubt there is much noise in the house and the cable runs are short, so purely curiosity.

 

Yes, if you use the XLR connections between the two.

What else would it do?

 

From Schiit's MJ2 FAQ -

So, is this really a balanced amp, or a fake balanced amp, or what?
Hey, don’t blame us for other manufacturers' abuse of terminology. When we say “balanced, differential,” that’s exactly what we mean. There’s no side-whispering going on about “Well, yeah, after we convert it to single-ended, then back to balanced again.”

Guess that is that. The combo is amazingly quiet and free of noise.

 

If the connection between the two units is balanced XLR, regardless of whether it is converted from SE to BAL prior to output in the DAC and to SE then back to BAL in the amp the common mode noise rejection would still be in effect, as that's a property of the balanced transmission line.

 

Thanks Torq. I remain stunned at how good Yggdrasil->MJ2->HiFiMan X V2 sounds. Bells almost sound like bells (there is much ring and little fuzz), Violins have their sweet sound, and cymbals have their ring without sounding purely like buzzing gnats.

 

Hi Torq,

Can you explain that a bit? Balanced just seems like whatever and is just more opportunity for two halves of the circuit to be out of sync (not that this matters much at 20Khz and below), but differential, that is brilliant. With both wires being so close, odds are noise that affects one will affect the other, and because what affects one will likely affect the other, by using the difference between them, odds are the difference between them will be the same. A clever way to filter out noise.

One of many articles here - http://www.hairballaudio.com/blog/resources/diy-resources/balanced-and-differential

I may be missing why they are essentially the same.

 

Either I'm not being clear (or I'm using terms in their colloquial engineering form with suitable assumptions/inferences around what they mean), or you're confusing what's going on inside the amplifier or source with how it talks to the outside world.

I can have a balanced (differential) transmission line as my interface, and still convert that to or from single-ended operation inside my component. In which case, the transmission line still enables common mode noise rejection independent of the internal topology of the amplifier.

...

Balanced-differential and/or simple twisted pair configurations aren't sufficient to provide full rejection, however. For that, you need a more complex topology that, while still using two effective conductors (in opposite phase), requires four actual wires in a star-quad (etc.) configuration. In most cases, the differences don't really matter ... but once your'e in the studio, dealing with long cable runs, and with wires crossing over each other, near power supplies and other sources of electronic/electromagnetic noise, it becomes a lot more important.

 

@Marvey posted a useful discussion/summary on this subject ages ago ... the reading of which will help with comprehending the typical/colloquial references used here and what they really mean in practical terms here.

This paragraph, right at the start of his post, is the foundation for the common terminology here:

"Technically, "balanced" simply means two wires with the same impedance to ground. That's it. Think twisted pairs used for telephone lines or Ethernet. Differential signaling is where the two symmetric (out-of-phase to each other) signals are used with each leg. Differential signaling is often used on balanced lines, so for the sake of discussion and common use, let's say that the term balanced implies differential signaling."
​

Hope that helps/makes sense.

 

Dear Torq,

Can I suggest the Border Patrol DAC be added to your ever expanding list:
http://borderpatrol.net/DAC.htm

Review:
https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2017...usb-digital-to-analogue-converter-se-version/

and, repeat the request for Lampizator <anything>, but particularly the Atlantic.

I have included a summary of my system below. The EAR868 > EAR534 > Focal 1008 II be.



Only update since I produced this is that the IFI 5v iPower that powers my Raspberry Pi 3 has been replaced by a Chinese R-Core 5v/3A LPSU.

I decided to find out whether a change in DAC might address a few issues I have with my system using my current Bel Canto 3.5vb DAC (BC):

Small number of tracks/albums with:
>Hard sibilants (e.g. Tarzan Soundtrack)
>Cymbals being splashy & hard
>General feeling of edge


In short the answer is YES. With my previous speakers, Living Voice, the issue wasn't evident, and even then it is only evident in a small subset of my music; but, irritatingly so.

The two DACs I have listened to so far are the Schiit Yggdrasil & the Lampizator Level 4 Generation 5.


Schiit Yggdrasil (Y)

Well, this thing is excellent.

I have historically used my Oppo 105D as a baseline to assure myself that any issues I was hearing existed, and that the issue wasn’t with the BC itself.
The BC is a better DAC than the Oppo, but the Oppo is no mean performer, excellent VFM – when set up correctly.
The Y paints a wider and more detailed soundstage. I can hear lyrics more easily. I am aware of fully resolved instruments that were before just a part of background clutter.

An example: Liszt transcribed Beethoven’s symphonies for piano. These are available on Qobuz. At the start of the 7th Symphony, 1st movement there is a thumping start which is immediately damped, this makes the whole frame of the strings vibrate. Through the BC this was an almost dissociated noise, like a second supporting instrument was in the background. Through the Y this was the piano, adding to the power of the player.

So the Y is simply better than the BC?

Yes, but I could set up a demo that the BC would win.
The BC has a high frequency edge, this can act like a spice in food. For instance, again from Qobuz, there is an album of Star Trek themes which includes part of the soundtrack from the more recent Star Trek movie. The track ‘Hella Bar Talk / Enterprising Young Man’ opens softly, and a deep drum beat joins, this moves into Enterprising Young Man when there is some impactful drumming. Through the BC the bass is more evident, and the climatic drumming is just balls out exciting. Though the Y this is all there, but just a tad muted.

Listening to a vinyl rip I did of Rikki Lee Jone's eponymous album was like listening to it for the first time.

Overall the Y paints a superb aural picture that the BC, while good, cannot equal. Looking at 'my issues':

>Hard sibilants (e.g. Tarzan)
Tarzan – Now listenable. Still sharper than I would like, but not ear bending
Simon & Garfunkle, e.g. Dangling Conversation from CD – Now a LOT better, mainly fine.

That was with the tracks that caused me issues with the BC. With other music the Yggdrasil could move towards sharp, not to the same extent as the BC, but it is there, for instance:

Stevie Nicks (LP rip 9624) - The Other Side of the Mirror
Great album, and sounds stonking through the BC. Via the Yggdrasil retained all the marvels of that DAC: wider soundstage; more details that add to the experience; clearer what is happening musically ....but, the vocals sound slightly sharper.

U2 (Quboz 16/44.1) - The Joshua Tree
As above (*)

>Cymbals being splashy & hard
Issue gone

>General feeling of edge
Issue substantially reduced, almost gone.

The BC is more extended in the high frequencies. With the Yggdrasil the high frequencies are there, and beautifully articulated, however they feel as though they are recessed in the sound stage and at a lower volume so that some detail is just missing.
Similarly at the bass end of things the Yggdrasil doesn't dig as deep. However, it is wonderfully musical, whereas the BC can feel just a bit one note in comparison.

Please note that I am overstating things in order to draw the comparison. These are both good DACs, and the Yggdrasil may well be a great DAC.



Yggdrasil Conclusion

In my mind and in my system the Yggdrasil is a clearly a better DAC overall than the Bel Canto 3.5vb, and I thought the BC was a very minor improvement on my Naim DAC/XPS; BC purchased to scratch a couple of other itches.

Having listened to the Yggdrasil I can definitely understand why some people describe DS DACs as grey in comparison to R2R, at least on this very limited sample! There is something propulsive and compulsive about the Yggdrasil, you want to stay up and listen to just one more track, that becomes one more album. You find yourself getting into music that before left you a bit nonplussed.


(*) Fascinating:
I was listening to the Yggdrasil most of the day. In the evening I put on U2 (Quboz 16/44.1) - The Joshua Tree, it sounded AWFUL. Far worse than any of the sharpness I had experienced with the BC. The following morning all was well again. Why? I obviously don't know, but I wish I had immediately tried streaming a local file as I suspect it may be due to high contention on Virgin's infrastructure. As it was I turned off the system and watched Dr Who - really good this season!


Lampizator Level 4 Generation 5 (L)

The L reminds me so much of my Bel Canto 3.5vb (BC), but with timbre, and the assertion of the Y. It goes higher and deeper than the Y, as does the BC, but improves in the bass by being more tuneful.

Whilst the L is more like the Y, the Y still shades the L in clarity. Also, while the bass is excellent, it is perhaps a little over enthusiastic. At times it reminds me of a Linn LP12!

The L does present extra detail, but not as readily as the Y; however, I suspect this is because its signature is so close to the BC, and so I am used to the detail that it renders.

In terms of the soundstage I would say that the L is slightly larger than the Y, but not as well focused. I don't find this distracting as, although I do enjoy a very focused 3D image, I do recognise it is a technical manifestation of the recording engineer. Live performances I go to do not have pinpoint imaging.

In terms of the areas I am seeking to address:

>Small number of tracks/albums with hard sibilants (e.g. Tarzan)
L – Largely replicates the BC, but is slightly reduced, e.g.:
Tarzan – Still sharper than I would like, but not as often.
Simon & Garfunkle – Better than the BC, not as good as the Y.

>Cymbals being splashy & hard
L – Issue gone, treble is as extended as the BC, and is not recessed as it is with the Y.

>General feeling of edge
L – Issue substantially reduced, almost gone. In fact, better than the Y.

Lampizator Conclusion

Another excellent DAC. Having listened to it for three days I prefer it to the Yggdrasil. However, the Y does seem to be just a bit more open. The Lampizator appears to mask a bit of the detail from the music, but boy does it get timbre.

So, why not just buy it ......I suppose I want to have my cake and eat it too.

I feel I really do need to listen to the Border Patrol DAC: R2R, NOS with valve rectification.

M

 

Have you already checked out the USB Nervosa thread?
http://www.superbestaudiofriends.or...crapifiers-pro-interfaces-and-bears-oh-my.62/

Particularly the first post:

As well as this:

In short, stop sinking cash in your USB chain. Get a used Aries for your Yggdrasil. Pair it with AES. And be done with it.

 

Hi Landroni,

Yes, I have read that thread .....and, the chain above works very well for me. I only replicated it above for transparency when discussing the DACs.

I haven't bought the Yggdrasil. If I had to pick between the Yggdrasil and the Lampizator I would buy the latter. As it is I will be listening to the Border patrol DAC before I make up my mind.


M

 

Hi Mr Underhill, welcome to SBAF!
Don't listen to @landroni advice, clearly he didn't fully optimize his USB chain yet.

I just got my Yggdrasil couple of weeks back and I'm using it with the Watts Transient Filter on the USB input. It's developed by Chord designer Rob Watts. The effect is like night and day. I like what this does with Yggdrasil so much, I ordered another one! Crazy huh? Gonna try stacking two on the Yggdrasil input. For sure this will sound better than the AES or TOSLINK inputs.

I can only imagine how awesome this could sound in your setup. In fact, that's the first thing that came to mind when I saw your nice system diagram... WTF^2

 

That, of course, is assuming that the Watts Transient Filter effect is multiplicative. Can you even begin to imagine what a WTF^3 could sound like?

 

I though it was transient aligned filter. WTAF!

 

Getting a "demo" of this seems to require buying one and then returning it. In general, that means it won't happen. I just don't want to deal with stuff like that as it's a pain in the arse, makes it harder for other people to audition it, and beyond the hassle factor it's something I don't like doing when I have absolutely no intention of keeping the unit in question.

If they/you can provide access to a unit for a few days without me having to buy it, then it can go on the list.

Again, if they're willing to provide/facilitate access to a demo/audition unit, sure.

Hopefully their current stuff sounds markedly better than the couple I've been exposed to in the past.

We'll see if they respond to my inquiry as to how they handle demos/auditions (with the same caveats as I have above).

 

I got a very prompt response.

No dealer model (direct sales only), so their demo approach is "Buy it, keep it for 7 days, we'll refund you if you don't like it". This isn't very practical if you want to compare several units. And even less so if you want to do a comparison among several different manufacturer's products*. Maybe I am odd in this regard, but when I do auditions for gear I'm looking to actually buy it's rarely in the model of "listen to one thing and if I like it, buy it". It's invariably a comparison of several short-listed items and I'm using a final, back-to-back, audition to decide which I like the best.

For the purposes of simply reviewing a unit this approach, outside of doing it in the context of a magazine or review-focused site, is untenable ... and it's not particularly fair to the manufacturer either. At a minimum I'd be out the shipping costs (which tend to be non-trivial for units like this) and the manufacturer now has a "return" they can't sell as new.

This is a very long-winded way of saying that, absent someone loaning me a unit (or something changing in how they handle demo gear), there won't be any LampizatOr DACs getting included here.

--

*For the sort of gear I'm comparing, you wind up with tens of thousands of dollars sitting on a credit card, which invariably takes a couple of weeks to actually get refunded, and typically you're out $100-200 in shipping charges, often more when you're talking about insuring a $10,000 item, on each unit, even assuming no restocking fee nonsense. Not appealing at the best of times.