Life after Yggdrasil: Watering the Ash

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by Torq, Mar 1, 2017.

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  1. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    I've read good things about the Burl B2 Bomber, and it is one of the very few Dante 2-ch dacs out on the market. The cheapest one (that I know of) is the Focusrite AM2.

    Prism sticks out for me as I believe they are the only prolific company that produces both audio interfaces and also measurement/testing gear (mainly the dScope would be known to people here). Sticking strictly to dac duties there's the Callia and Dream DA-2, but on the used market you can find the AD/DA devices like Lyra/Orpheus/Titan/Atlas for much cheaper. I have a friend who's playing with their flagship 8xr, but that's a stupid amount of money for a lot of features you'll probably never use.
     
  2. Dino

    Dino Friend

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    I was responding to this.
     
  3. Type35

    Type35 New

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    The list is already quite impressive. On the R2R side, I would suggest the Audial Model S which Hands seem to like. There is also the DDDAC 1794 which is a bit of a DIY solution but can also be purchased fully assembled. Of lesser interest on the D/S side, the Simaudio Moon Neo 280D and Audio Alchemy DDP-1 are from reputable companies. Finally, from the pro-audio world, I like the RME Audio ADI-2 Pro.
     
  4. FredM

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  5. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    I suppose it had to start somewhere ... ;)

    Anyway ... DIY stuff is somewhat unlikely to make the cut here. I may make exceptions for items that can be purchased ready to go, but only in cases where it's form the manufacturer (not third-party "builders"). I certainly have the ability to put this stuff together myself - there's just not much incentive to do so in most cases.
     
  6. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Auralic

    Vega (-) (*)

    When I first looked at the Vega it sold for $3,495. Currently they're listed at $2,799 - I don't know if this is a permanent reduction or a sale, but it's consistent across multiple vendors.

    I’ve a fair bit of history with the Auralic Vega at this point, spanning both several auditions and actually owning one myself, and that has been educational on a number of levels.

    My original audition of it was prior to buying my original Yggdrasil in fact, and while it was a nice sounding product, it wasn’t persuasive enough at the time to warrant pursuing. Then, while looking for alternatives as part of this process, I wound up re-auditioning it – this time directly against Yggdrasil and in my own system. It still failed to rise above what Schiit’s product can, and does, routinely deliver – at least for me.

    With that in mind, it’s probably a bit strange to learn that I actually wound up buying a Vega and giving it a much longer trial. After all, why bother if it had failed to move me before?

    The short answer to that is simply that much of my “objection” to the Vega was it’s $3,495 asking price. Even used they were typically going for $2,400-$2,700. And, different or not, that was more than I felt it was worth – particularly when you considered Yggdrasil at $2,299. However, fortune, providence, fair-words and/or the general weirdness of the world put me in a position to pick up a used Vega for quite a bit less than half the typical used prices. So, I snagged it on the premise that if it still didn’t do anything for me I was certainly not going to lose money on the deal.

    One of the things I found surprising with the unit I owned was that my reaction to it was somewhat different to when I did my previous listening sessions. It’s possible that is down to cognitive bias – we tend to want to like the things we’ve spent money on and all sorts of subtle, internal, mental gyrations can result from that - be that “new toy” syndrome or something else.

    With my original “Life after Yggdrasil?” sessions, my first impression of the Vega was one of hyper-detail. This gave way to simply being a brighter, perhaps somewhat grainier, rendering than I get with Yggdrasil – rather than being any actual increase in realized detail or resolution. In fact, in general, I find Yggdrasil to be more transparent and resolving, without winding up sounding analytical (which would also be a slightly over the top characterization of the Vega's presentation).

    While I wouldn’t actually call the Vega bright per-se, it did, originally, get fatiguing after a few hours, which is something I’ve not experienced with Yggdrasilever, no matter how long I listen for. As a specific example, I am pressed to think of a time where, outside interruptions notwithstanding, I’ve ever started listening to the“Jessye Norman” version of Bizet’s “Carmen”and not finished it. It’s usually a “settle in for the evening and forget the world exists” kind of an affair.

    On the Vega, at least with the original audition, I turned it off before the mid-point of the second act. It just wasn’t stirring in me, emotionally, what that piece usually does and I kept wanting to lower the volume from half an hour in.

    The second time around, with the unit I owned, I found the fatigue aspect took a lot longer to take hold – and it did not always do so. Whether that was down to me being conditioned to the sound somewhat (brain burn-in), or being a simple product of being in a different mood or state of mind I am not sure. Perhaps a little of both. But one thing this did do was call into question how realistically I can rely upon “involvement” and “musicality” as part of an audition when there are time-factors involved. It also suggests, to me at least, that any latent time-pressure during an evaluation might contribute to psychological factors that results in artificial fatigue or projection of other negative aspects. This is something that probably warrants further exploration, and as I update other impressions posts here, especially for other DACs I have also wound up owning in the interim, we’ll see where that goes and if there’s a trend.

    Anyway, my next “session” with “Carmen” (quiet down at the back there …) was a lot more enjoyable. Not satisfying in the way that Yggdrasil was, but very pleasant all the same.

    At no point in any of the time I spent with the Vega did I find that using the different filters made any useful difference to how I felt about the unit overall or how I was reacting to any particular recording. The filters do have audibly different results, but not to the point where it made me want to spend more time listening to something if I wasn’t already enjoying it.

    Tonally I find I prefer Yggdrasil, particularly with piano and woodwind instruments and, even more so, I find the Schiit unit to treat female vocals in a manner that, even when they’re getting up into the upper octaves avoid any semblance of sibilance or harshness. It also projects a much more convincing soundstage than Vega, and yields better layering and spatiality. These aspects were consistent during the entire time I had Vega available.

    Other differences ...

    With the unit I owned, I took the time to explore the DSD capability a bit more fully. Originally that feature was the only thing I felt the Vega did that Yggdrasil couldn’t better … which makes sense since Yggdrasil doesn’t do DSD at all. Originally I’d had no interest at all in DSD and, while that hasn’t changed a great deal, I’ve gotten more experience with it with other DACs and was able to conclude that Vega does a better job than most here. It still does not, generally, fare any better (or particularly worse) than a PCM version of the same thing, but if DSD is your thing then the Vega is one of the better choices I’ve had through my hands.

    Anyway …

    Overall, I still feel that Schiit’s offering bests the Vega across the board and it does so at roughly two-thirds the price (though right now you can buy a new Vega for $2,799 vs. the original $3,495). And, honestly, even with the screamingly good deal I got on my used Vega, I still think Yggdrasil is a better proposition. In hindsight I shoud have gotten hold of a Gungnir MB to compare to at the time, just to see how that lined up.

    In terms of involvement enjoyment and musicality* the Schiit DAC draws me in, bathes me in music, holds my attention and stirs my emotions. The Auralic unit was not able to do so with such consistency, nor to the same level … albeit this was better during the time I owned the unit vs. when I did the original listening sessions.

    This excepted, the actual low-level, individual, technical assessments, while all still favoring Yggdrasil for me, arenotmiles apart (though clearly audible) - but taken all together it makes for an easy choice. And one that, in the end, resulted in me selling my Vega.

    --

    *Again, it will be interesting to see how these factors play into other sets of impressions as I update them based on more recent auditions/ownership and different evaluation contexts.
     
  7. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    Gearslutz had the Lynx Hilo as the most neutral / least colored convertor after the loopback threads if I remember correctly.
     
  8. 9suns

    9suns [insert unearned title here]

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    Regarding the Adagio/Pavane level 3 on the list, please check this:
    http://www.criticalsound.co.nz/products/adagio/

    "Note :
    Adagio can also be used as a straightforward Dac for connection to an Analogue Preamp i.e. with standard output of 2V. Just set the Volume (clock) control to 12 : 15."

    The only difference between Adagio and Pavane Level 3 is the volume control, so maybe the Pavane Level 3 is redundant on the list.
     
  9. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

    Staff Member Pyrate MZR
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    He can buy mine if he wants. :) I love it but don't need it with the Adagio.

    FYI, that really means 3pm, if you're thinking hour hand. It's actually closer to 3:45 if you want to match 2V/4V.
     
  10. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Ayre Acoustics

    Codex (-)


    This is quite a dull looking thing. Plain, simple and elegantly functional … but still dull. And it has a less-than-convenient configuration for connecting balanced headphones. Though happily it’s other balanced-outputs are quite conventional XLR sockets, which makes them easy to use.

    And you’ll want to use it in balanced mode as it performs significantly better that way than it does in single-ended configuration. I call that out because the difference between balanced and single-ended with most components isn’t that big, but it’s quite noticeable with the Codex.

    Detail levels are similar to Auralic’s Vega, without the apparent hyper-detail effect I found there, but don’t quite approach what I get out of Yggdrasil. The general presentation is quite neutral, maybe a shade over enthusiastic up top, but not to the point I’d describe it as bright, and maybe a little dry at a times. It certainly doesn’t do much for poor recordings and didn’t make mellow of anything harsh or strident, but then it didn't add harshness or stridency that wasn't already there.

    The Codex does give a quite musical rendering though it somehow manages to lack a little in stirring emotion – and that with pieces that usually have a quite profound effect on me. I did make it all the way through my favorite version of “Carmen” here, unlike with the original Vega, and Jessye’s voice projected well and with good tone and life.

    Schiit’s DAC was more believable with instrumental timbre, delivered a more expansive and solid soundstage, has better neutrality, exhibits more presence and remains entirely musical and engrossing. Lower registers are plumbed more thoroughly while maintaining a treble that’s capable of air and space and sweetness, without ever seeming artificial.

    So, while this is not really for me, and I don’t think this competes that closely with Yggdrasil, particularly with price taken into consideration (even allowing for the built-in headphone amplifier), it’s a rather nice listen.

    QB-9 DSD (-)

    It appears this unit may no longer be available - it's only found in the "archived" section Ayre's site right now.

    This was auditioned via a USB connection, on account of that being the only input it has.

    I played around with it in single-ended and balanced mode, but it was rapidly apparent, much like the Codex, that you want to use this in a balanced configuration if you can. The difference is larger than with most components I’ve tried.

    This did a really nice job with female vocals, be they deep and mellow or bright and more soaring. The sense of energy and life in those portrayals was really rather delightful.

    Detail is good without seeming exaggerated or artificial, with a smooth and balanced presentation that, while not particularly exciting, is musical and even-handed. I liked it more with acoustic pieces, small chamber ensembles and bigger classical productions, where it had very good layering, than I did with more driving and complex contemporary music.

    When doing harder evaluations (when things aren’t immediately clear) I use an approach called “Tune Dem” to help sort things out. Here the Yggdrasil was definitely ahead, with it being much easier to follow the music overall and to hear individual elements within it, which is sometimes described as “instrumental separation”.

    I think Yggdrasil is still extracting a little more detail than the Ayre, and it’s rendering it in a more lifelike manner, something that I found more evident with lightly plucked strings, brushes on cymbals and pianissimo passages/notes on a real piano. With Yggdrasil you can, if the recording has it, hear individual wires on a brush dragging after the main bundle, whereas I was not able to discern that as frequently on the QB-9 DSD.

    Soundstage easily goes to the Yggdrasil. It was bigger, three dimensional and very solidly projected, whereas with the Ayre it was shallower and shorter, and somehow left feeling wider than it should be.

    The Ayre didn’t engross me and leave me wanting to play “just one more song” the way Yggdrasil, and some other DACs, managed, but it was still entirely enjoyable.

    I think the QB-9 DSD is very good, excellent even - if you ignore the price. I’d take it over the Auralic Vega without any hesitation. If I only had the ability to use USB DACs then it’d float up near the top of what I’ve heard over USB without the need for expensive fixes in the chain …


    But … when put next to Yggdrasil, the QB-9 DSD is, for me, too expensive for what it does without actually reaching quite the same level that the Schiit product achieves.

    --

    Since I was using a USB connection anyway, I did run some DSD files through the Ayre. This did nothing to convince me that DSD is worth bothering with and, when I could tell the difference between DSD and PCM I almost invariably chose the PCM playback.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2017
  11. Xecuter

    Xecuter Brush and floss your amp twice a day

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    Hey @Torq, what was your main reason the nagra HD didn't measure up to Yggdrasil?
     
  12. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    It didn't grab and involve me, musically, they way Yggdrasil does. In fact, a number of other DACs did a much better job of this than the Nagra HD. It was a hard one to evaluate, sonically, as it was rich and somewhat lush, perhaps a bit too smooth and lacking in bite and despite an otherwise good technical performance it always felt like it was just a technical presentation.

    Of course, there was also the fact that it was ~$28,000 and for that price I could have bought DAVE, Pavane, DirectStream AND another Yggdrasil and still had change - any one of which I enjoyed listening to more.
     
  13. Big D Design

    Big D Design RIP 2021

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    @Torq
    My mind wonders about the Audio Alchemy DDP-1 and the Mytec Brooklyn. Both are priced right around Yiggy. I have Modi Multibit as you know and am very happy with the little unit. My system is finally up to the point where I have it done other than MAYBE a Modi Multibit replacement. I see you already have the Peter Madnick unit on the list.
     
  14. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Added the Brooklyn to the list. Hopefully it fares a LOT better than the Stereo 192 DSD ...
     
  15. Big D Design

    Big D Design RIP 2021

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    I noticed another record company has taken the MQA plunge. Yikes
     
  16. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    I have a soft spot for the Ayre Codex because it's a big brother to the Pono. But I cannot believe Ayre also used the stupid "plug two SE cables into our amp to get balanced" setup that they used for the Pono. On the Pono it made sense, because you could plug into one port to get SE out, and plug separately into the other port for line out or two-person listening, which was a cool feature. And then you could use both for balanced. Not a bad solution, versus a balanced only port that can't be used for anything else. But on a desktop DAC/amp, that's just f'ing stupid.
     
  17. Clemmaster

    Clemmaster Friend

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    What are your thoughts on the Codex vs QB-9 DSD?
    Do you agree with Ayre position that the Codex is a replacement for the QB-9?
     
  18. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    I'd like to ask @Torq to revisit Chord Dave.

    Last September, your initial impression (posted at HF) about dave was very positive, but it seemed that you changed the position later: http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/how-is-chord-dave.2244/page-2#post-88857
    I am a bit surprised that dave is still given the "superlative" indicator (Only two dacs are allowed to be colored green!). My impression (about dave) is closer to your first impression tho.

    This time you may be able to review dave from slight different angles than before. I believe buyers and reviewers may have different mind set, resulting in different conclusions (maybe? ;)).
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
  19. zachchen1996

    zachchen1996 Friend

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    Forgot to mention the Polish company LampizatOr's flagship Golden Gate DAC in my earlier post.
    It's basically a beefed up version of their Big 7 DAC.

    Optional upgrades:
    - Upgrade DSD from 256x to 512x
    - Upgrade PCM engine to Balanced Discrete Resistor ladder R2R
     
  20. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    You'll get no argument from me on that ... and while I didn't spend much time using the built-in headphone amplifier, it would have been a lot nicer if it had also at least included a 4-pin XLR output for cans.

    It was an interesting little unit though ... on the one hand I though it was dull, even ugly, to the point where I would not want to have the thing on display at all (not even on my desk), but at the same time I appreciated that it wasn't housed in some asininely expensive and unnecessarily "over designed" casework.

    If that's what they say, then I suppose that's what it is.

    But if you mean from a sonic perspective, I'd say, from memory (and my notes) that I found the QB-9 DSD a bit smoother in the upper registers and a little more refined overall. There was less one-note tendency with sub-bass as well (I have some stuff in my notes that I was too lazy to write-up first time around, so I'll be updating things here and there as I add them to this thread) ... though this was not a big issue with either unit.

    Differences were comparatively minor either way, and there was more in common than different.
     

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