Life after Yggdrasil: Watering the Ash

I won't say IMHO, because it's not even that, it's my humble bias, but I feel that tubes in a DAC are there for marketing reasons.

 

Funny stuff!

The upgraded DAC/analog boards I have are definitely not from the "Analog 2" production run. I don't know if there were any design/implementation changes between when I last provided test results/feedback to Mike and what went into production. I don't believe there were but I'm not sure; in any case, they're not production boards (which might mean nothing more than different silk-screening and/or more/less automated assembly).

They are a marked improvement over the original boards, in several areas. I say that having had both original and the upgraded boards back to back in the same system (via my pair of Yggdrasils). Formal comments, beyond it being an impressive upgrade, need to wait until I have production boards or a confirmation that posting my thoughts on what I've heard is appropriate.

And now that I'm done with traveling for a little bit, I will put in my order to buy* production Analog 2 and USB Gen 5 upgrades to replace the "beta" boards I have and do another comparison. Then I'll do another back-to-back original/Analog 2 comparison, before selling the original Yggdrasil (no longer need two**).

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*Yes, BUY ... just because I did some beta testing, doesn't mean I'm being given free product (nor should it be, there's too much potential for abuse there, in either direction). Also, with those beta boards in-place, those units are - in real terms - not something I can sell if I don't want anymore. They need to be restored to production parts, be those original or the new ones.

**My listening setups have changed significantly during the time I was gone.

 

Is this out of a sense of discretion towards the manufacturer or just a wish not to scare the buyer? Speaking strictly personally, I generally don't mind these things as long as they're clearly and accurately described.

(Yeah, OK, currently waiting for a prototype of an e-stat energiser from a reputable builder to clear customs. It was made clear to me that it was a prototype in a less pretty box, and what the functional differences were. I just hope customs realise that it's just a bloody headphone amp and charge VAT+1% duty as they should, and not assume it's a diesel-powered food mixer and fire control system or something.)

 

In short, it's because I do not want even the perception, to a manufacturer (or that of a dealer or distributor), that any results, review or commentary I might share are for sale or can be influenced in any way other than producing a solid product.

...

There have been a number of instances in which I've been offered a discount for gear, or outright free product, AFTER* doing intensive listening and having written up my impressions/a review. In every single case this has resulted in me NOT publishing that review.

The typical way this gets screwed up is usually comparatively innocent. For example, on one Head-Fi loaner-tour, the manufacturer offered everyone on the tour a useful discount if they posted a review of the product. I say "comparatively innocent" as the discount was not contingent on what the review said, only that one was posted (there was no implication or suggestion that it needed to be a positive review) - and that the discount was not to be discussed.

That was sufficient for me to not feel comfortable posting my, already written and rather lengthy (you know how wordy I can be), review. And, in this particular case, it was a product I ultimately bought, via normal channels and at full-price. The discount would have been worth about $1,000. Despite buying it and owning it, I've never posted about it.

Whenever this sort of thing has happened, particularly in more egregious cases, I've kept the documentation so that in the event things get nasty, it can be published. Which is not much of a factor as, per my comments above, in any case where things aren't 100% above board, I don't bother posting about the item in question.

...

So, for me, acceptable ways to get gear for review are:

• Loaner tours with no strings attached.
• Borrowing units from friends and/or the local audio groups I participate in.
• Demo units from dealers.
• Buy the unit myself, via normal channels.

In the last case I do so in a manner which means the manufacturer/dealer has no link back to me, so they can't play any silly games with cherry-picking units for review or offering "incentives". This also allows me to continue to negotiate some fairly aggressive deals for things I really want, and keep those purchases disassociated with my accounts here or on Head-Fi.

Seeing "item provided for free in exchange for my honest opinion" is enough to stop me reading a review entirely. That sort of thing might be acceptable per FCC guidelines, but it doesn't work for me.

...

Finally, I made one exception to the above list - for a unit I had early access to in prototype form. It was made very clear from the first post that it was a prototype I'd been participating in testing for. It was a cheap unit (I spend more on a glass of wine on a frequent basis, so simply not a material factor in my evaluation). The prototype was in temporary housing. I'd already bought production versions of the thing (at full price). And that caused a major shit storm that was, in part, what lead to me abandoning any substantive posting on audio forums for several months.

That's not something I will repeat.

...

Anyway, that's what that's about.

My preference is still to audition gear based on loaner tours, preferably handled via an anonymous purchase and not something vendor-intiated, or to borrow units acquired at retail by various friends and associates.

 

I was waiting your impressions! welcome back Ian!

 

When I imported the PrismSound dScope years ago, it sat in customs for a week while paperwork bounced between FDA and USDA. The word analyzer raised some flags for additional scrutiny. They must have figured it had something to do with food.

 

Possibly not the sharpest knives in the drawer. I assume this wasn't before the era of easy googling?

I can see from the tracking that my shipment has been re-assessed at least once, prior to being released, also. This could get interesting.

The most annoying was when I shipped a Night Blues Mini to an address in the US. Fedex sounded jittery when they called me, trying to get it cleared. I ended up drip-feeding them Google translations of the Russian web page to calm things down.

 

Has anybody had a change to compare the Yggdrasil Analog 2 against a Chord Dave ? Wondering if Yggdrasil now offers similar or better performance at cheaper price...

I am seriously tempted in purchasing one, even if I have zero experience with Schiit gear

 

Yep, me ... I own all three units in question (see Analog 2 caveat, however).

Start by reading this.

The takeaway from that should be that I, personally, already found the original Yggdrasil to be competitive with DAVE (or DAVE to be competitive with Yggdrasil, depending on how you look at it), even without the 5x delta in price.

Then consider that I find the pre-production Analog 2 Yggdrasil to be better sounding than the original Yggdrasil. But note that I do not have a production set of Analog 2 boards at the moment and am not sure if there were any changes between what I had for beta-testing and what is being shipped.

Once I get a set of production Analog 2 boards in I can do an actual direct comparison between my original Yggdrasil, my Analog 2 Yggdrasil and my DAVE and be sure it's valid.

 

@Torq I'm curious what changed for you to actually buy a DAVE, was it just a case of finding one at a really good price, or something else?

 

A combination of factors.

My principal issues with DAVE were the value proposition and the aesthetics/ergonomics. I managed to find a DAVE with full warranty for significantly less than the best price I've seen them go for used. Even adding in a used stand for it, which largely fixes the ergonomic issues, it was still significantly less than just the DAC typically sells for used. And the aesthetics matter less in this case since in my current home the DAC isn't on prominent display.

My new place is much smaller than the homes I've had before. So getting rid of a dedicated solid-state amplifier and being able to use the one in DAVE (for some headphones, anyway) when I don't want to listen via my tube amp saved some useful space and simplified my setup.

Then I fancied a change of pace from the Spring DAC L3/KTE, but still wanted a DSD-capable DAC. I'd owned the other primary competitor in that space, the PS Audio DirectStream for a bit but wound up letting that go and spending more time with the updated Yggdrasil than anything else, so the DAVE was the next logical choice.

 

I don't know if this will figure into your plans but: Yggdrasil A2 production is currently on hold due to an unspecified manufacturing delay. Even though the site still says "In stock, ships in 3 - 5 business days" it appears nothing has shipped this month and it's unclear if any units will go out before March. I placed an order 1/29 and was told last week that 'it will be a couple more weeks'.

Courteously, @schiit does not charge your method of payment until shipment.

 

Thanks. It would be interesting to see a shoot-out, Ygg2 vs Blu2+DAVE, if you can get a loaner easily and have time for the listening needed...

 

This is very unlikely to happen, I'm afraid.

With a couple of exceptions, which have specific conditions attached to them, I am not planning on continuing to do highly-detailed all-up "compare to Yggdrasil" reviews. To the extent I "review" DACs going forward, it is more likely to be in stream-of-consciousness style with overall impressions rather than direct comparisons.

The exceptions are posting a detailed original Yggdrasil to Analog 2 comparison in the current style of this thread, and maybe including DAVE in that (or, at least, doing an Analog 2 to DAVE comparison in the same style). Doing this assumes that the production and pre-production Analog 2 boards only differ in how they were built and not "what they are" (I'm assuming they are). And I'm only doing that because if those boards are the same electronically, then I already have the listening AND the write-ups done.

Also, my entire listening rig has changed (headphones excepted) from transport/source to cables, which makes future comparisons in this style a discrete set of information not directly relatable to the existing posts.

Beyond that ...

I've already said that I think the Analog 2 boards are a significant upgrade vs. the original Yggdrasil. If you're an Yggdrasil owner, and are hankering for an upgrade, then assuming that prod and pre-prod Analog 2 is the same then it's a no-brainer.

In short, you won't find as big an improvement for the $550 + shipping that Analog 2 will cost you when compared with anything else you might be able to "upgrade" to for the price of a used Yggdrasil + $550 ... or at least not anything that's crossed my path.

...

As for Blu Mk2 + DAVE specifically, that's tricky as Blu Mk2 is in very short supply (I've heard 6+ months lead-time). I'll buy one if a black unit turns up used at a sensible price, but since I have no interest in the CD transport part, if I have to order and buy new I'll wait for the rumored standalone M-Scaler (i.e. with no transport). No doubt that's a ways off ... if the rumor is even true.

This is also a $30,000 combination (with the stands, which I consider mandatory from an ergonomics perspective). While I've done such comparisons to Yggdrasil in this very thread, I don't think they've ever been more than academically interesting.
Most people willing/able to drop that sort of money on a DAC are likely to be able to arrange an audition for themselves.

That said, if I ever get a Blu Mk2, or a dedicated M-Scaler, I'll no doubt post about that.

...

And then there are some other things I plan to post SoC-style impressions on. The RME ADI-2 Pro vs. ADI-2 DAC for example. Maybe the iFi Pro iDSD - though that's a lot less likely than it was, due to all the guff they've included in it and the corresponding elevated price tag. Other things as they come up ... but likely a lot less DAC-centric and more varied.

 

Thought I would post some thoughts on my Pavane following the upgrade a couple of months back. My Pavane now has double the number of R2R chips, upgraded to the DAC TWO modules and an FGPA per channel ... etc. It has been getting plenty of use since December. SQ is the same goodness as the Adagio preamp/DAC, as I understand it.

To my ears, this is a very significant upgrade to the SQ over the original Pavane. In particular, it addresses what was perhaps the only area of weakness in the Pavane that I could pick up on - at times it was a little too laid back and somewhat lacking in punch/engagement. The result is a significantly more engaging and punchy DAC that still has the charm and musicality of the original. I love this DAC. Absolutely love it.

Would be very interested to see any comparisons between the latest Pavane/Adagio and the latest Yggdrasil / Holo Spring L3 KSE NOS units.

 

I keep seeing FGPA implementation in all the good competitors to the Yggdrasil. Like the Pavane, Dave, Directstream.
Speaking of which, the PS Audio Directstream also had a recent update in December, the Redcloud update, that was supposed to improve the sound significantly.

 

There's no particular magic or mystique to FPGAs. Linn have been using them to implement their filters (etc.) in the DS line since 2007. They're just a convenient tool for when you need to implement hardware-level functionality (which runs at many times the speed of equivalent software solutions) but don't have the ability to sell enough units to justify having a custom ASIC fabbed.

You can do a one off FPGA build for the price of a single FPGA board. You can't really do a one off ASIC. And, in real terms, unless you're either selling very high priced integrated circuits (e.g. a video card chipset), or very high volumes (millions), having an ASIC fabbed is not realistic. Especially for something using lots of vector cores.

FPGAs do have the benefit of being reprogrammable, but not all manufacturers allow this. Linn and PS Audio do, and take GREAT advantage of it. Chord doesn't ... so it'd either require a return-to-factory for an update, or, as it tends to go with them, buy a whole new unit.

You could, if you wanted, implement Yggdrasil's filter on an FPGA instead of a DSP processor. In that particular case it'd be silly to do so, as the DSP chip involved is MORE than powerful enough for the job and VASTLY cheaper than an FPGA chip.

But if you tried to do 2048 fs upsampling and then apply a 160K tap filter that way (i.e. what DAVE does), well, you'd need an array of DSP chips, or a single chip more powerful than any I'm aware of in an audio product, to pull that off, so the FPGA approach is more efficient.

All about the right tool for the job, rather than there being any particular magic to them.

 

Guff seems to be their business model. Maybe I'm weird in liking equipment that does one thing and does it as well as possible within the BoM, rather than doing a bunch of things with compromises*. People get very enthused about feature lists- even if they're just slightly tenuous "nice to have" options that they'll rarely use.



*DAPs are another good example of this.

 

horses for courses, if I am not mistaken all the new generation discrete R2r DACs (metrum, soekris, Holo, denafrips) need an FPGA in order to be able to switch the resistors with the neccessary speed

 

Crap though, Ted Smith w/his Redcloud firmware... he managed to squeeze 10X-->20X DSD upsampling into his crazy FPGA dac ;D