Maximum Impact?!

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by themystical, Apr 19, 2017.

  1. Skyline

    Skyline Double-blindly done with this hobby

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,426
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I would recommend a properly amped HE-6.
     
  2. bigfatpaulie

    bigfatpaulie Tried to screw other friends while playing victim

    Pyrate Banned
    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2016
    Likes Received:
    194
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario, CANADA

    The company is JPS Labs and they have been around for a good while. The Abyss is their headphone, but you are looking specifically at the AB-1266. I'll warn you, it's ugly. Like circus ugly. And it really needs a heavy lifting amp, much like the HE-6's.

    http://www.abyss-headphones.com/

    The biggest issue, for me, with the Abyss is fit. Some people don't have a hard time with it, I really struggled to get it right and the fit has an enormous effect on the SQ so some time and care is needed to really get the best out of them.
     
  3. themystical

    themystical New

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I just checked the price for that. It is over £5k!! I am not shy of spending money but for this sort of money one can buy a small brand new car so it would have to be a "out of this world" headphone! The HE6 has been recommended by a few people and sounds more 'real world' if it has the capabilities?
     
  4. aufmerksam

    aufmerksam Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,337
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    E. Lansing, MI
    I would put another nod for the HE-6 (though its availability in the wild is diminishing and it must be well amped) and the Focal Elear. As to the Elear, I found the mids majorly sucked out (though this can be tweaked with an inline adapter), but the impact and dynamism was unmatched. The things you talk about listening for in your first post are the things that I still remember being so vivid with the Elear.

    Also, I can't believe no one has steered you toward this yet:
    [​IMG]
     
  5. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

    Pyrate BWC MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    2,594
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    near Munich, Germany
    I would throw all the mods at it that get rid of the sharpness and improve midrange tonality while keeping transient response and openness. SBAF and SD mods with a different cable will probably get you close.

    As far as amps go, probably an EC tube amp or the T3, but I don't think my Rag is half bad either. Also, get a turntable.

    I don't think that's what he meant. I think the feeling of dynamics has nothing to do with FR. I would say my widebanders are more dynamically capable, both micro and macro-dynamics, than the HD800 (or any other headphone that I've heard), which in turn I feel is more dynamic than most speakers. The FR of my speakers is a bit more mid-centric, though with much less bass.
     
  6. bigfatpaulie

    bigfatpaulie Tried to screw other friends while playing victim

    Pyrate Banned
    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2016
    Likes Received:
    194
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario, CANADA
    They ain't cheap, that's for sure. With the Phi drivers, however, used sets are popping up more and they can be had for substantially less than new.
     
  7. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    May 23, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,842
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    London, UK
    Hey @themystical I posted about the same thing recently:
    http://www.superbestaudiofriends.or...ness-open-backs-and-chasing-the-orpheus.4159/

    I feel that tangibility/tactility along with weight of sound/impact/slam are the absolute most important qualities I look for in audio, not having them is a deal breaker. Otherwise I am just not engaged, my attention keeps drifting. I hear things, but I am not feeling them. I'm surprised it isn't a bigger factor for others.

    The Orpheus HE-1 and Fostex TH900 are the most tactile sounding headphones I've ever heard, the latter with the best slam. Elear and Utopia w/Elear pads were impressive in these areas, especially for open back dynamics. I'd always thought planars would be inherently good at these things due to their large diaphragms, but after trying some Hifiman and Audeze headphones recently I found that their tactility was not that great, certainly better than the HD800 and markedly better on impact than they and the HD650 are. I have not tried them myself but the Hifiman HE-6 and Abyss 1266 have been cited as excellent in these areas, along with the rest of the Fostex variants.

    I recently took the cups off my TH900 and these aspects were diminished but surprisingly still evident, possibly comparable to the Focals.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
  8. themystical

    themystical New

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Wow we seem to be talking about the exact same thing!? You should try the K1000's and I guess I need to try the Fostex?!
     
  9. TheIceman93

    TheIceman93 El pato-zorro

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,300
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    SoCal
    I'd imagine that the Atticus and the MJ2 would get you close to maximum impact.
     
  10. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    May 23, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,842
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    London, UK
    Sounds like I really do! They're the king of soundstage but I assumed that they would be pretty thin sounding due to being so open. Looks like I'm gonna have to put them on the list.

    Tonality can obscure this stuff a little, so bare in mind the TH900 in particular are pretty jacked up there. If your sources are digital then EQ can help with the midrange dips at 540hz and 3.1khz, as well as the hot treble.

    I'm still searching for answers on how these qualities are achieved, and why they so often aren't.

    Yeah, Mj2 has got the goods where it comes to slam. I suspect it may not be the most tactile sounding, but I've not had much worth comparing it to.

    I've found DACs can have a significant effect on tactility, the GO450 is super ethereal sounding for example.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
  11. themystical

    themystical New

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    [QUOTE="BenjaminBore, post: 133821, member: 2130"

    I've found DACs can have a significant effect on tactility, the GO450 is super ethereal sounding for example.[/QUOTE]

    Yes I totally agree with you. Basically you need a DAC which has not been blunted by poor implementation in terms of power supplies or the analogue output stage - e.g. use of ultra-clean power supplies, no capacitors in the output path or no complicated discrete output stages. The amps you use should be transparent and not deteriorate too much of the signal from the DAC. I believe it is not the FR but the timing aspects that dominate here. Finally your transducer should be able to make use of the good signal coming to it and provide the excellent transient performance needed. Quite straightforward then??!! Erm no surprise that this is quite hard to achieve??
    Sorry I have not come across the Mj2 before? Is there a link?
     
  12. AdvanTech

    AdvanTech Friend

    Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    May 13, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,667
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    NYC
    Yes I totally agree with you. Basically you need a DAC which has not been blunted by poor implementation in terms of power supplies or the analogue output stage - e.g. use of ultra-clean power supplies, no capacitors in the output path or no complicated discrete output stages. The amps you use should be transparent and not deteriorate too much of the signal from the DAC. I believe it is not the FR but the timing aspects that dominate here. Finally your transducer should be able to make use of the good signal coming to it and provide the excellent transient performance needed. Quite straightforward then??!! Erm no surprise that this is quite hard to achieve??
    Sorry I have not come across the Mj2 before? Is there a link?[/QUOTE]

    They mean the Schiit Mjolnir 2.
     
  13. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    May 23, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,842
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    London, UK
    That's very interesting. The Geek Out 450 has Time Coherent Mode and Frequency Response Mode timing domain filters, and the latter had more solidity to it. I've also rerouted the power pins away from the laptop straight into an external usb battery, and realism went up a healthy notch once more.

    Messing around with my headphones I've found that with the HD650 if you remove the front and back foam things get less solid, and the soundstage expands. With the HD800 if you shove tissue around the internal cup it improves solidity, but the stage contracts. While with the TH900 if you remove the cups the stage expands, and the tactility is reduced. The impression being that when sounds get stretched out in size they become less dense, when compressed more dense.

    Speed/separation moves in line with the effect on soundstage. TH900 doesn't do guitars well, they sound like mush, when I took the cups off their speed also jumped up and guitars sounded like guitars.

    Come to think of it sound-density may be the better way to describe it, and it seems directly proportional to the image size of a given headphone. Or perhaps it's how blurred/distorted the transient response becomes which creates this sense of density.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  14. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    May 23, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,842
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    London, UK
    This quote seems pertinent: http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/tube-vs-solid-state.3296/page-10#post-133959
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  15. themystical

    themystical New

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Having taken some of the recommendations of this forum on board, I had a long drive yesterday to pick up a pair of Focal Elears. Whilst driving, I wondered why reviews of headphones focussed on the wrong things IMHO. What I want to know about a pair of headphones is how realistic and tactile and impactful and dense they sound; not the typical FR thing - bass, mods & treble and spikes and dips etc.!
    Anyway, whilst driving I was doing a thought experiment. Imagine two different headphones ( say a Stax 009 and a Utopia) with infinite capability for digital audio processing. If using the processing the FR was made completely identical for both headphones would they sound exactly the same? Scientific reasoning would suggest that they ought to? (although experience would suggest otherwise?!). If this is correct, why have the sound processing experts not come up with a single headphone which could by means of firmware emulate whatever headphone you would like? Select whether you want to listen to an Orpheus or Stax 009 or R10 or TH900 today by simply dialling in their FR?
    Discuss!
    Will post impressions of the Elears when I get a 6.3 to 3.5mm adapter as these come with 6.3mm only,
     
  16. Ash1412

    Ash1412 Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    667
    Trophy Points:
    93
    "Scientific reasoning" would suggest that all DACs and amps sound the same. But obviously that's not true, is it? FR is not the entire story of a pair of headphones. Though it is one of the most important things.
     
  17. cskippy

    cskippy Creamy warmpoo

    Pyrate MZR
    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,999
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Tempe, Arizona
  18. landroni

    landroni Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,164
    Trophy Points:
    93
    "Sciencey", in my books. What passes for science in the Sound Science section on HF or on Reddit has vanishingly little to do with science or the scientific method. It's more related to bunch of poorly informed and, well, literally, incompetent people parroting "but science!!"*. Like this, by Space Oddity:
    [​IMG]

    * While several things are going on at the same time here, this is perhaps the best account---not in the context of audio but still perfectly applicable here---of what the SS'ers and the so-called "objectivism" genuinely represent:
    https://www.firstthings.com/article/2016/05/scientific-regress
    "If science was unprepared for the influx of careerists, it was even less prepared for the blossoming of the Cult of Science. The Cult is related to the phenomenon described as “scientism”; both have a tendency to treat the body of scientific knowledge as a holy book or an a-religious revelation that offers simple and decisive resolutions to deep questions. But it adds to this a pinch of glib frivolity and a dash of unembarrassed ignorance. Its rhetorical tics include a forced enthusiasm (a search on Twitter for the hashtag “#sciencedancing” speaks volumes) and a penchant for profanity. Here in Silicon Valley, one can scarcely go a day without seeing a t-shirt reading “Science: It works, b—es!” The hero of the recent popular movie The Martian boasts that he will “science the sh— out of” a situation. One of the largest groups on Facebook is titled “I f—ing love Science!” (a name which, combined with the group’s penchant for posting scarcely any actual scientific material but a lot of pictures of natural phenomena, has prompted more than one actual scientist of my acquaintance to mutter under her breath, “What you truly love is pictures”). Some of the Cult’s leaders like to play dress-up as scientists—Bill Nye and Neil deGrasse Tyson are two particularly prominent examples— but hardly any of them have contributed any research results of note. Rather, Cult leadership trends heavily in the direction of educators, popularizers, and journalists."
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2017
  19. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    May 23, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,842
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    London, UK
    There's more to sound reproduction than frequency response. I've spent far too many hours trying to EQ lower frequencies into the HD800, not happening. It's bad bad bad at anything resembling bass. I assume it is due to the ring radiator design, ear cup volume, and distance of the driver from your ear. Imagine taking a subwoofer driver, a mid range one, and a tweeter. Feed them the full signal and EQ them to the same FR. Do you think they're gonna sound the same, or even similar?

    There's a truck-load about sound and how we perceive it that we just don't know. Scientists of today would laugh at the beliefs of their peers from 100 years ago, and they of theirs 100 years before them. To me objectivists are more like "the earth is flat because", and subjectivists are like "these cute pink pebbles make me feel all gooey inside. f**k you they're magic".

    Science is incredible. People are idiots. Science is only as good as it's current level of understanding on a specific topic. Theoretically everything is potentially understandable, but just because there is scientific research in a particular area does not mean everything is known. It's just the current limit of our understanding. The whole point is to further our understanding of the universe. To start from the premise that "we do not know", and work from there.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2017
  20. Changeling

    Changeling Tube Slut

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,019
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Sweden

Share This Page