New LCD-4 vs Utopia shootout from Innerfidelity.

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by Thenewerguy009, Mar 18, 2017.

  1. Thenewerguy009

    Thenewerguy009 Friend

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  2. Rockin_Zombie

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    COMFORT Utopia-10 LCD 4 - 9? I think the LCD 4 rating will take a nosedive if anyone wore it for 4+ hours. Primary reason i jumped off the planar ship.
     
  3. shabta

    shabta Facebook Friend

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    I literally can't wear any LCD headphone. I get a severe neck ache after as little as 30 minutes. I guess I is just fragile.
     
  4. Lojay

    Lojay Friend

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    A lot of the relatively negative comments about the Utopia can be accounted for by exaggerated treble. The Utopia does sound tipped up and harsh on the treble with its very long stock cable, so much so that I thought of selling the Utopia the first day I had a long listening session with it after my purchase. Switched to a DHC Prion4 cable and the treble issues are gone. Still far from being as good as my electrostatic setup, which is other-worldly, but this may tip the balance when it comes to comparisons with other headphones such as the Audezes.
     
  5. Garns

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    Source is Oppo HA2.
    Different amps for the two headphones (AMB M3 for Utopia, Deckard for LCD4).

    Hrmrmrmmmm
     
  6. cskippy

    cskippy Creamy warmpoo

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    Send them a Zana Deux for the Utopia.
     
  7. Negura

    Negura Friend

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    The biggest problem with Utopia for me is timbre, and then tonality.They sound fake and a bit W shaped. The timbre issues could be result of the BE material? Then the stage, which is way small for flagship standards, but not surprising since they use a 4cm driver. Hearing the Utopia on uber gear with a top custom aftermarket cable helps, but then again these things helped any reasonably capable headphones I had around (even HD650s).

    So no surprise to me they don't seem to compete well enough even with something like the LCD-4. They surely did not compete with my modded HE-6s.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  8. Muse Wanderer

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    Utopia's tonality whilst not perfect, doesn't have major deficiencies in my experience. It is at times too dynamic for "relaxing" moments, but when I listen to Wagner, I want to be punched in the ear drums so to speak. Life orchestral music does punch you in the same way. Andromeda is there for those relaxing moments in bed - best of both worlds really.

    I auditioned the LCD4 and the lack of lower treble was so readily apparent, it sucked out the life of the orchestra. Cymbals literally disappeared and reappeared in the high frequencies. I wonder how on earth some persons don't hear this abysmal feature, but then everyone has differing hearing, preferences and priorities. The LCD4 was driven by a GSX mark II and I could compare it directly to an SR009 driven by BHSE with similar source. The STAX was so much better at rendering Bach's St Matthew's Passion, that there was no contest. The SR009 was so addictive to listen to and I loved it, but it is a different take that does not suit my aim, a life-like musical experience.

    Needless to say, the Utopia topped both cans due to a more natural timbre, smoother tonality, huge dynamic impact and resolution, despite a somewhat narrower and lateralised soundstage. (For soundstage, I would just go for speakers anyway)
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  9. Negura

    Negura Friend

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    It's always interesting to me when there are complains about the LCD-4 treble, which I don't disagree with at all, because they are there, but while at that how can we ignore sometimes similar treble inconsistency issues of Utopia. Also the bass is not very linear with sub-bass rolloff and bumps in quantity higher up.

    http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCD4.pdf
    http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/FocalUtopia.pdf

    Sometimes I think for an owner the timbre fakeness of the Utopia is best not to be heard, because once I noticed it there was no going back. :) Also I refuse to accept underperforming (vs competition headphones) soundstage with 4k flagship headphones, just because I have a pair of speakers that wipe the floor in staging/imaging capability with any of my headphones. These are super expensive headphones, part of the same race for the uber buck, that Audeze, JPS Labs and others are "guilty" of.

    Just for reference, I don't own/intend to buy the LCD-4 (did spend some time with them) and no longer own the Utopia, so I have no horse in this race.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  10. Tyll Hertsens

    Tyll Hertsens Grandpappy of the hobby - Special Friend

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  11. bazelio

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    This is interesting. Switching from copper to silver isn't intuitive when a bit of treble zing is the problem....
     
  12. Armaegis

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    My impression of the Utopia was that it was a good technical driver marred by a papery/zingy treble. This was mostly alleviated by switching to Elear pads (although I still preferred the Utopia pads for comfort).

    On the flipside, I hated the Elear with Utopia pads.
     
  13. sorrodje

    sorrodje Carla Bruni's other lover - Friend

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    Yup same here for the Utopia. Very impressive Super technical & fast ( for a dynamic at least) driver but a few oddities in the timbres/tonality killed it for me. Dunno why. Even if those flaws are kinda small , they nevertheless kept me out of my music. As if I was always hearing the nice tuning of the headphone instead of the music. Couldn't stomach the IEM like soundstage either. narrow ,deep with instruments layered in a kind of tunnel in front of me.. I know there isn't much to expect from headphones compared t to speaker but there's nevertheless a bottom limit . To my ears, the soundstage of the Elear was a clear step up . and IMO Elear's soundstage is in line with HD6X0 ones. cohesive , well proportionned but not a be all end all.

    No opinion about cable benefits ( I'm not a cable believer but I stay open minded) but adding 1800 bucks on top of the 4K Utopia is a game I didn't want to play . I honestly don't expect any cable , amp , dac , whatever could change my mind drastically. Never experienced such changes before. Maybe I'm wrong/stupid/deaf.

    The focal is not a bad headphone at all but definitely not for me. To each their own. As usual

    Never heard the LCD4 but I would like to even i don't consider a purchase. ..

    Edit : Katz corner's shootout looks like an advert for Audeze lol.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  14. Negura

    Negura Friend

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    (Note: a previous posting was deleted so my reply makes a bit less sense now. Anyway the idea was Utopia require gear matching/cables/synergy/whatever)

    I have a certain level of exposure to modding as well as "matching".

    There are certainly areas Utopia are very good at or excel at vs other headphones: build quality is very good, low distortion and clean sound, dark background, decent resolution.

    I don't see how the Utopia flaws can be remedied, aiming for better "synergy" and here's why:
    - staging. It's dissapointing small. I can think of many headphones, including some mid-fi ones, that simultaneously have a bigger, more open, and more proportional sounding stage. Whatever rig,cables one may use on Utopia if we apply the same to other transducers, the gap will be just as big to the Utopia. Apples to apples.
    - how can I fix the timbre that I'm hearing it as slightly offset, to the point I have difficulty enjoying the music. Should I expect to find such a coloured cable, DAC, amp that exactly spot on will fix the BE coloration (will call it that for the sake of putting a name on it)? I would need anti-BE cables. Not very feasible. :)
    - the same problem with W FR shape. Outside EQ, nothing I can expect to be fixed with non-defective gear.

    As usual what I may find as annoying coloration, some people will find enjoyable. It's the same with HEK (v1). I ended up being annoyed with the softness, wall of bass, and incoherent treble. Some people love the softness and/or that bass.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  15. TomNC

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    I listened about one hour to the Utopia with Moon Audio Black Dragon single-end cable at a mini-meet yesterday. Overall I think this is a very fast, punchy, resolving pair of headphones. The tight mid-bass, overemphasis on mid-high and some trebles bands, make this a moderately fatiguing phone for me. The authorative punchiness reminds me of the HE6 I used to have, but the less-resolving HE6 (with mods) was not fatiguing to me. I also like the bass of the HE6 better.

    The Utopia felt like the opposite of HEK V1 with a Black Dragon cable, which was also present at the meet. HEK V1 was at the Yin end: soft, too reserved, and relaxing. Utopia was at the Yang side: musculine, tight, punchy, forwarding sound, and excessively energetic. While I can appreciate the hi-fi characers of the Utopia sound, I ended up being more appreciative of my HD800 with SD mod and the lighter version of Bill-P mod, plus a Norne Draug 2 cable. Yes, in constrast to the Utopia, the HD800 felt like a mid-fi phone now with less resolution and speed. But with all the mods, the HD800 has non-fatiguing bass, and sweet mids, and only occasional sharp treble edges.

    With four tube amps at the meet (ZDS, DNA Stratus, Trafomatic Head 2, and my made-in-China Ting Feng 6 Pro) plus varying DACs (La Scala Optologic, VEGA, and NAD M51) , the overall characteristics of the Utopia stayed rather consistent. I was also able to reconcile the drastic differing opinions of the soundstage of the Utopia. While most said its stage was too narrow, some listeners claimed the stage was large. What I perceived was that the Utopia's stage was decent in size and shape across the four amps, with excellent seperation and imaging. But because of the overall forwarding sound and heavy weight-punchiness, the soundstage had a clearly defined spheric border: outside of this border, sounds suddenly disappeared. Unlike the Utopia, the HD800 had excellent presentation of the surrounding sounds and less forwardness of the mids (and mid-bass), and thereby created an impression of expansive, sometimes seemingly borderless stage, best for the large orchestra tracks. With the Utopia, due to the forwardness of individual instrument sounds, it felt like the listener was working in the band on the stage. It was an unnatural way to listen to the orchestra works. HEK V1 and HD800 were more natural.

    Overall, Utopia is not close to be the best phone in the world, even in the price range under $5,000. It would appeal to certain listeners who like the somewhat bright and energetic sound signature or those who normally listen at low to moderate volumes. For me, this cannot be an all-round best phone.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  16. Thenewerguy009

    Thenewerguy009 Friend

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    Did you try impedance matching on the Trafomatic amp with the various headphones?
     
  17. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

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    Yeah, I deleted my post after realizing that I'd probably misinterpreted what I was responding to. The point wasn't full chain synergy needs attention for Utopia, but always. And that isn't to say synergy can make any transducer perfect and preferable to the masses, just that it is important. I lived with HD600 for 16 years, and wanted to move "up" to HD800 on numerous occasions but each time I heard them, I knew I couldn't live with them. As mentioned, there are always tradeoffs and we pick our poison....

    For me, the lean and shrill stock HD800 was always atrocious. Modded HD800s with SDR and shelf liner never sounded acceptable let alone desirable despite looking better in FR graphs - sounding overdamped and wooly for my preferences. Modded HD650s are much more agreeable. The Utopes, for me, do a lot that I like and a little that I don't but the tradeoffs are more than acceptable with the right chain. ZDS+Yggdrasil is a good combo, and my analog front end sounds great. In fact, the analog has made me realize just how much glare my Yggdrasil actually has and if I weren't busy going in other directions, I'd have done a Yggreya by now. I do agree that Utopes tend to be somewhat forward, and I'd prefer them a bit more laid back in general. But I don't have a problem with their timbre - they sound pretty natural. Although, tubes do affect timbral accuracy and can help cater to preferences. I can also see how Utopia dynacism could be fatiguing to some. For me it's a feature and not a bug. Headstage, I think I'm with Marv and others on that; it's just not much of a consideration for me as a point of A/B comparison until things become downright claustrophobic, which Utopia is not. BTW, I sure don't remember Elears being "wider" sounding either. And Utopias do have a more expansive stage than my HD600s. I don't get the tunnel vision thing with ZDS, although a bit with T3... But that's a known T3 attribute. Utopias do make me whirl around in my desk chair regularly, thinking someone else is somewhere in the room. Much more so since listening to vinyl through headphones, incidentally. Tonality-wise, I suppose Luis' phones have been the most even handed I've ever heard. The Code-X is nearly perfect in every way in that department, but then it lacks dynamics and doesn't work well with entire categories of amps. Those are tradeoffs that I don't like. LCD-4's? Never heard 'em. I'd be surprised to like them, and was caught off guard somewhat by the article. But, will keep an open mind if I ever come across a set at a meet.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  18. TomNC

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    Matched to 100 Ohm on the amp. It is a nice feature to have. But I didn't listen to other phones than the Utopia.
     
  19. Lojay

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    The Utopias are quite an acquired taste. I know some audiophiles well who love it for its punchiness, impact and resolution. I can appreciate those aspects and I think there is no dynamic headphone quite like it. I know a local audiophile who is a sucker for percussion tracks and jazz and classical music who absolutely adores the Utopias and favours them over the SR009, Abyss and LCD4.

    I feel however that the Utopias sound closed-in and therefore unnatural in a way - not just in terms of a relatively constricted soundstage but also in terms of a lack of air. That is perhaps best described by Sorrodje who describes the sound as coming through a "tunnel". Another way of putting it is that no matter what recording one plays, there is a sense of thick, dense and smoky air surrounding each voice and instrument. I might have to investigate the swapping of earpads, as it seems that moving the earpads inwards and outwards has a strong influence on the airiness and staging aspects.

    I do not feel that the Utopias are particularly unnatural in the way they portray individual voices or instruments, though there is a slight metallic tinge in the treble that may be referred to as the Be colouration. The colouration isn't as annoying as say the deficiencies in midrange and treble purity on the HEK V1. I'd say the Utopia's midrange is pretty clean and smooth with a hint of euphonia and allows me to enjoy vocals and strings for casual listening (something I never managed to do with the HEK V1). Overall, the frequency response is great but not totally coherent. Subjectively speaking, I'd say the SR-O beats the Utopia's pants in this regard. But then similar criticisms could be made of the SR009, the HE90, the HEK and the HD800.

    The lack of air and soundstage does not improve with much significance with a cable upgrade eg with the DHC Prion4, so in that sense a cable upgrade does not transform the Utopias into something it isn't. But to my ears and other audiophile friends of mine, the DHC cable upgrade brings a noticeable improvement on the treble response. Speaking for myself, I don't look for cables that "colour" the sound, but rather I look for cables that do the least harm to transparency. Compared to the stock cables, the DHC Prion4 presents a more relaxed presentation to the sound while retaining overall dynamics, and reduces some nasty artifacts in the treble in that it smooths out the treble, reduces some of the metallic tinge and reduces its prominence in the frequency range.

    If you can get over the "tunnel" effect and lack of openness, you will be rewarded by the high resolution and visceral impact of the Utopias. In terms of the combination of attributes like this, there is no other headphone like this on the market. Electrostatics are very transparent and resolving, but they do not hit hard and have flabby bass. The modded HE6 is visceral and has the most beautiful midrange I've heard, but I feel its resolution, micro-detail and macro-detail are noticeably lacking especially at the relatively mid-low volumes I listen at (60-90 dB) and are not as transparent. In short, the Utopias are unique, not in an objectively "broken" way, but in a "your preferences may vary" way.

    Comfort levels are also so-so. The HEK, HD800 and HE90 are a lot more comfortable and light to wear. The grip of the pads on the ears is, for me, quite unbearable for extended listening.

    Overall, I get much more satisfaction from my HE90/SR-O and DIYT2 than the Utopias, but the Utopias are not a poor substitute when I feel like conserving the tubes on the DIYT2. Still, the Utopias never get to stay for a long time on my head (I'd say a maximum of one hour). If they broke one day or if I had to sell the Utopias I wouldn't miss them. Strangely I would miss the modded HD800, the SR-O and the HE90 and to a lesser extent the HE6 (I could easily buy them back).
     
  20. Rthomas

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    It is interesting how the megabucks DHCPrion 4 cable seems to do exactly what the owner wants to their chosen TOTL. It seems to affect different TOTLs in different ways making up for their ''deficiencies''. Almost like it is tuned for each headphone.
    It would be interesting if you were to lend the cable to a non cable believing Utopia owner to see if they notice the same changes....

    Closing gaps. With two flagship headphones, where one is preferred to another, Prion4 will push the under-performing headphone ahead of the higher-performing headphone (assuming both headphones were using the same cable before Prion4 was added).

    Did you notice this when comparing your Utopia to any other TOTL? This is an extraordinary claim and a large price tag with no evidence other than the above sentence.
     

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