New Schiit Vali 2 Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by jexby, Dec 11, 2015.

  1. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    I recently picked up a Vali 2 for fun to try out as I've been recommending it as a starter amp a lot lately and since I'd only heard it once in a modest setup I thought I'd see what it's capable of. My original plan was to compare it to the Valhalla 2, but I quickly realized that was pointless as Marv already summed it up pretty well in the Schiit amp compendium. To re-iterate: the Valhalla 2 projects a wider and more open stage, is slightly more resolving of fine microdynamics and plankton and has very little if any tube characteristics to the sound tonally. The Vali 2 possesses slightly tighter and punchier bass and has slightly better clarity due to a lack of haze and more focused transients. It is also a little 'wetter' than the Valhalla without being straight up gooey.

    The only thing I don't agree with in Marv's assessment is that the Vali 2 is laid-back, certainly not with the stock Canadian 6BZ7 tube and not inherently with other tubes either. The Valhalla 2 with its deeper stage is less forward or in your face than the Vali 2 at all times, but I suppose it is all relative. I was worried I would prefer to have a HD600 with the Vali 2 over a HD650, but that simply wasn't the case at all. I'm very impressed with how much information both amps are able to extract from the Gungnir Multibit.

    Also to note is @Garns is dead on regarding high vs. low gain on this thing. Using low gain with the HD650s removed some of the apparent characteristics of each tube I tried, lessened punch and was all around just less engaging to listen to, sort of reminding me of the Magni 2 in that regard. Below are some notes on other tubes I tried for fun, but as a reminder I really don't like tube rolling at all and I'm very much in favor of cheap set it and forget it type recommendations. The stock 6BZ7 tube bugged me with poor extension on either end and nothing special in the mids to make up for it, so I'd definitely see about replacing it. Impressions above and below were using stock HD650s and the SE outputs of the Gungnir Multibit.

    Westinghouse 6DJ8: Don't know a lot about this one as it was included by the seller. Seems to be a generic USA-made industrial 6DJ8, probably not as nice as an Amperex OG but probably not that far off either. Year of manufacture illegible. Well-balanced tonally, better than the stock tube in that regard. Where this one falls short is macrodynamics, it isn't limp, rather it's more consistently punchy than the stock tube. But that's just it, everything has the same amount of punch, macrodynamic crashes in songs feel 'meh' as the preceding arrangement carries the same weight. Whereas I was annoyed with the treble of the stock tube at times, this tube bugs me with drum and bass lines.

    Versus stock, slightly better layering and slightly more engaging with guitars. Less revealing of vocal nuances as everything in the presentation seems slightly louder. Slightly better if not the same treble decay as the stock tube. Less pronounced sibilants. A decent cheap replacement tube regardless, but I'm sure you could find better, perhaps for less.

    Reflector 6N23Hp-EB: Russian-made NOS from '71. Talked a bit about how a pair of these worked in the Val2 here. I had high hopes for these as replacement tubes in the Vali, and I wasn't disappointed. They have the best mids of the bunch, with the closest representation of what I expect certain singers to sound like. Guitar microdynamics are also excellent, not bogged down by the "loudness" the other two tubes seem to have. Bass isn't quite as tight as stock or punchy as the Westinghouse, coming across as a bit tubby and rounded in comparison; however it also does not display the weak macrodynamics of the Westinghouse.

    Treble is the cleanest and most extended of all three tubes without being bright, taking steps towards the Valhalla in terms of airiness and correct decay. This is most apparent when cymbals or hi-hats are being ridden. What's ironic about this tube is that despite getting 'close enough' to the performance of the Valhalla, I just wish I was listening to the Valhalla instead to get that extra bit of stage and plankton. Were I to keep a Vali 2 around, this is likely the tube I'd use for maximum engagement considering I don't care much about bass. Unsure if it's worth $60 for a premium low-noise unit compared to something like the WE396A + adapter, which I have yet to try.
     
  2. jexby

    jexby Posole Prince

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    always great to have more Vali 2 listeners share impressions.
    I do agree that schiit does not do any favors to "new tube customers" by including their current stock supply.

    much better off hearing an intro tube amp with an EH 6922, or an older RCA black plate (model escaping me),
    or an adapter with GE JAN 5670 or WE 386A.

    then again, it's not schitt's business to stock the best of (subjective) possible tubes.
    yet a mention toward possible "cheap but good" tube upgrades might be a good FAQ on their site?
     
  3. FallingObjects

    FallingObjects Pay It Forward

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    General reminder to all people looking at a Vali 2 that there is inherent channel imbalance at very low volume levels on the Vali 2's pot! So if you find yourself not getting much further than 8 or 9oclock on the pot, then it could just be that natural tendency, not your tubes.
     
  4. Changeling

    Changeling Tube Slut

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    Vali2 – Tube Rolling Nervosa

    I’ve been lucky with tubes. I’ve bought them at fairly good prices. Hell I’ve bought way too many of them. I’ve said I would stop and then I haven’t. But then I haven’t rolled that much since I in parallel also bought a whole lot of new music. I’ve ended up giving lots away, selling some for what I believe to be quite good prices. I’ve tried to share thoughts about tubes here, I’ve tried to be a counter balance to the crazy belief that tubes is some kind of magic sauce that will transform a mediocre setup to a TOTL one.

    I've sold off the majority of the tubes reviewed , there’s a couple remaining in the for sale section of this forum.

    So here goes...

    Schiit Modi MB
    Schiit Vali2
    Sennheiser HD650 (stock, no mod, stock cable)
    Schiit Pyst interconnects
    USB 2.0 generic cable
    jRiver Media Player 22 with IVS setup, courtesy of @atomicbob :
    • Sonarworks Reference 3 (HP calibration, no limits profile, dry/wet 75, Set Bass boost for +2 and Tilt for -2)
    • Waves NX Stereo (Virtual space VST, default settings)
    • DDMF Metaplugin (Plugin wrapper)
    • DMG Audio EQuick (Low frequency shelf set for 12 Hz, +16 dB, Q: 0.55, 0%)
    1. Siemens E88CC 1963, etched codes, O-getter, gold pins, A-frame. Market price: $90-150
    2. Telefunken E88CC, gold pins, O-getter.Market price: $100-200
    3. Sylvania 6CG7/6FQ7, 1960's, yellow lettering, black plates. Market price: $5-50
    4. Voskhod 6N1P.Market price: $1.50-10
    5. Philips Miniwatt E88CC, 1963, O-getter gold pins. Market price: $50-150
    6. Siemens PCC88, Market price: $5-30
    7. Ultron PCC88’s, Market price: $8-30
    8. Telefunken ECC88 (1966 and 1969 – heard no difference between the 2) Market price: $80-190
    9. Siemens E88CC Disc-/Plate-getter, date codes stamped on getter support post. Market price: $90-150
    10. LM Ericsson 2C51 (w396 tube spec, licensed to WE, D-getter). Market price: $50-100
    11. Amperex Bugle Boy ECC88/6DJ8, Market price: $30-80
    12. RCA 6SN7GTB, Market price: $15-100 + socket saver $4-10 + adapter $5-10
    13. Western Electric W396a, Market price: $30-100 + adapter $2-5
    This shootout was initially more extensive. The latest changes I've done in my own setups changed this. It all started with @atomicbob post here after which I got the opportunity to learn about his Immersion Virtualizer System. It can be purchased and set up for about $220 but all components can be demoed for free and there'sdiscounts to be found on a regular basis. I'll defer to the Special Synergy thread for more information.

    The improvement I experienced with IVS installed in both my setups were so apparent that it halted the write-up of Vali2 tubes. Partly because I had so much fun listening to music and partly because the differences between different tubes decreased significantly. It got to a point where I considered ditching the whole write-up. I had a bit of a hard time seeing the value of posting the impressions. But I've given it some thought and decided that it might protect your wallets to have this in writing. Just know that all impressions are done with the IVS installed, whatever that information is worth...

    Siemens E88CC 1963, etched codes, O-getter, gold pins.

    Lots of energy. Lots of speed. Lots of detail. Works with all kinds of music. Way too expensive for Vali2. Tube slut has sold a couple of these for far lower dollars, but for use with Mjolnir2 in which it makes a great pairing. But for the price of up and above $150 it of course can't be recommended in Vali2. Not even if it was the best. Which it is not.

    Telefunken E88CC, gold pins, O-getter.

    Pitch black background, dead silent. Lots of detail, very well balanced, slightly less fun compared to the Siemens above, but more accurate. I found one and was hoping to pick up a second one to try with Mjolnir2 but it never happened until I settled on the tubes I found being best for me so I ended up with a single in Vali2. Too expensive for Vali2. Stay away. With current market prices extending to $200 you could instead purchase a second used Vali2 + a Sylvania 6CG7/6FQ7 to a friend and kumbaya all night.

    Sylvania 6CG7/6FQ7, black plates,.

    Found this one for $15 and it looks like it’s new in box. Not as fast or detailed as the Germans but very quiet and elegant presentation. Balanced bass, mids and treble. Extends nicely through registers and works well with all kinds of music. Highly recommended for the price. You can find well matched (if you care about that) pairs (so that you have a backup if one dies)from trustworthy eBay sellers for $20-30. I wouldn't spend more than that. I've read somewhere that the fifties version with green text is supposed to sound better but haven't heard it. I can't hear why anyone would want anything else than this.

    Reflektor 6N1P

    I really like this tube. It can be found dirt cheap, it's presenting a silent background and it's fun! This is one of the fastest tubes around. Spark, energy and detail. I rarely spend more than 2 hours listening to Vali2. Maybe that's a good thing. This tube will be too much after a couple of hours. It's in your face. I'm not going to say it's a steal, but if you want to give tube rolling a try – get one of these cheap and see if you hear any difference. Chances are you don't, and you've saved a whole lot of money. **I will include one of these tubes in a planned loaner kit toVali2 owners and SBAF friends in a couple of weeks. Let me know if you're interested. You'll pay for shipping from me to you and then onwards to other interested users.

    Philips Miniwatt E88CC, 1963, O-getter gold pins.

    This is a jazzy, slightly laid back tube which might be perceived as having a bit less detail than it's Siemens and Telefunken counterpart. I like it. I LOVED it in Mjolnir2 but it fell a bit short on perceived soundstage and depth. But we're splitting hairs here. Same story as the expensive Germans - however if I could find one at a really good price, say less than $30-35, this is a fantastic pairing with Vali2 and HD650. If you're after a completely silent background and super detailed presentation good for classical music, this might not be your top choice. But for a warm and engaging sound– this is it.

    Siemens PCC88

    A more strict, dry and more boring version of the premium Siemens E88CC. Butwith Vali2 this is a good tube that can be found for good prices. But I can't see why anyone would pick this one over the Sylvania 6CG7/6FQ7. These tubes can often be found in batches at old radio shacks closing down or at local online sites. This tube does nothing wrong.Slightly light on bass. **I will include one of these tubes in a planned loaner kit toVali2 owners and SBAF friends in a couple of weeks. Let me know if you're interested. You'll pay for shipping from me to you and then onwards to other interested users.

    Ultron PCC88’s

    Apparently after WWII the German distributor Bürkling used the name Ultron for their OEM label tubes. (Pre WWII Ultron was a Belgian tube company.)
    Unknown manufacturers. Hence this can be a hit/miss. I found a batch of these tubes of 2 different constructions. @atomicbob found them to be quite good in the Vali2 and I've been having LOTS of fun with them in Mjolnir2 and Vali2. I'm not going to tell you to purchase these tubes since it's going to be taking a chance. I've been lucky. **I will include one of these tubes in a planned loaner kit toVali2 owners and SBAF friends in a couple of weeks. Let me know if you're interested. You'll pay for shipping from me to you and then onwards to other interested users. It'll be the same tube as I sent to @atomicbob. **

    Telefunken ECC88 (1966 and 1969 – heard no difference between the 2)

    I sold these tubes prior to installing the IVS so my comments are based on running them pre IVS. Great German tube that can actually be found for good prices with a bit of patience. It's a balanced tube that is just spot on. Great bass, great detail in mids, extended treble without any trace of harshness. Slightly less detailed than the more exclusive German E88CC's, but not so much that it warrants the insane prices on those tubes.


    Siemens E88CC Disc-/Plate-getter, date codes stamped on getter support post.

    Same as Telefunken ECC88's tested pre-IVS. Yummy! This is a tube that sounds similar as the Philips Miniwatt E88CC to me. Jazzy tube with black background. Not a tube that I would recommend for those listening to classical music only. See my comments on Philips Miniwatt E88CC. Warm and rich sound. Expensive.

    LM Ericsson 2C51(w396 tube spec, licensed to WE, D-getter). / Western Electric W396a

    I couldn't hear any difference between these tubes, so I put them together here. I love this little tube. Not only is it cute like the Vali2 – it stands way taller than it's size. The only problem is the price. These tubes are getting very hard to find under $50-60 per tube at a good quality. I hate to say this, but they're very good with Mjolnir2 and with Vali2. It has speed and technical capabilities without sacrificing depth and engagement. But it's expensive. I can't recommend spending at least $50-60 on a tube for Vali2. I just can't. The JAN 5640 can be found at better prices and could bring you a long way. For Mjolnir2 these are my end-game tubes that is the benchmark for any other tube to beat in my setup. For Vali2 it's a beautiful match, but taking price into consideration I would have to say that the Sylvania 6CG7/6FQ7 together with the Ultron and the 6N1P is a better choice.

    Amperex Bugle Boy ECC88/6DJ8

    It's a shame that this tube is so expensive. It shouldn't be. It's a warm tubey-tube sounding tube. Engaging and slightly wet sounding. I could live with this tube if I didn't have any others. But it's worth way less than it's selling for these days. **I will include one of these tubes in a planned loaner kit toVali2 owners and SBAF friends in a couple of weeks. Let me know if you're interested. You'll pay for shipping from me to you and then onwards to other interested users.

    RCA 6SN7GTB

    Just because it's possible I decided to give this a try. It will make the Vali2 almost fall over but it sounds quite good! This is a tube with GREAT treble extension and detail. Great match with HD650. I'll just stop here. It's silly. Don't do it.
    Personal setup:

    IVS + Sylvania 6CG7/6FQ7 or Ultron PCC88. Total cost: $228-235. This what I'm using on a daily basis. But the IVS is used with my second system as well for which it was initially purchased, so cost should be seen in the light of that.*The only reason for not using the LME's or 396 here is that they're running in my Mjolnir2 setup.

    Without IVS these are my favorites:

    Ultron PCC88, Sylvania 6CG7/6FQ7, Telefunken E88CC, LM Ericsson 2C51 / WE w396a.

    Tube rollers delight pre nervosa kit:

    Reflektor 6N1P and Sylvania 6CG7/6FQ7. Compare and report back.

    Money no object:

    WE w396a / LM Ericsson 2C51 + adapter, Telefunken E88CC or Siemens E88CC. Not interested in hearing how these tubes has changed your life. They won't.

    EDIT: What have we learned? Don't forget to copy/paste the summary of lessons learned from document prior to posting.

    Lesson learned?

    Tube rolling is fun. Reading about tube rolling on certain websites is a definitive way to loss of money, loss of sanity, less music bought and general stupidity. You'll most certainly not squeeze those last 1-2% from your rig. The only thing squeezed will be your wallet. Or for you kids our there; your paypal balance. I can't stress this enough. Tube rolling will add a bit of spice and might help solving particular issues with your setup, but it will not be a life changing moment in which your setup goes from good to BEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD. Neither will reading stupid and inflated reviews on ancient tubes with a certain type of metal and a certain type of getter from a certain year. It will make you poor. And angry. And you'll refuse to admit it. You'll add to the noise on forums, hyping it even more. Because you can't admit to yourself that you were wrong, and got caught up in the hype.
    Vali2 is such a fantastic little amp. Pick your poison regarding tubes. I encourage you to stay on SBAF, read, ask questions, learn. Then spend money on tubes for Vali2 that will suit your needs, your budget and your sanity.
    Amen?

    **Vali2 tube loaner kit to be set up:

    1 Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8
    1 Ultron PCC88
    1 Reflektor 6N1P
    1 Siemens PCC88
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
  5. digitaldave

    digitaldave Acquaintance

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    @Changeling

    Thanks for the write up, well worth a read as a Vali 2 owner that's looking for some tube rolling options. I'll definitely look in to your recommendations. I've read a lot of people recommend the Electro Harmonix 6922 as a good option, do you have any experience with it, and if so, how does it compare with the ones you listed here?

    Thanks,

    Dave.
     
  6. DigMe

    DigMe Friend

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  7. Changeling

    Changeling Tube Slut

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    Thanks.

    I think @Garns and @philipmorgan has some experience with the Jan 5670's, in Mjolnir2. They seem to be readily available, and my guess is that for Vali2 they'll be a very nice pairing for little money.
     
  8. Changeling

    Changeling Tube Slut

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    Thanks.
    I haven't heard it. I've read good things about it and prices seem quite fair.
     
  9. Ash1412

    Ash1412 Friend

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    Which begs the question: why use a gain switch when you can put a better passive preamp/potentiometer in there? Isn't single gain with a high-quality preamp the usual way of doing things in the speaker world (power amp + preamp)? Of course feedback's not THAT bad but then you have two gains that sounds and measures different (two amps in one lol?) vs one gain that should measure the same regardless of the position of the potentiometer. Negative feedback does make the amp itself measure better and reduce OI for stuff that needs it though, so that could be the reason. @schiit can you explain the decision of adding a gain switch and compare the gain options? Is high gain the "truest" representation of the amp quality?
     
  10. Senorx12562

    Senorx12562 Case of the mondays

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    Uh, maybe $170.00?
     
  11. Ash1412

    Ash1412 Friend

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    Vali 2 is not the only one with multiple gains though. My question is more about multiple gains vs volume knob in headphone amps.
     
  12. SSL

    SSL Friend

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    Probably noise floor, output Z, etc.
     
  13. Changeling

    Changeling Tube Slut

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    Well written. I've just unpacked a Siemens Halske E288CC, gold pins, new in box. Found for $30. It's very good indeed. Running in the Vali2 as I write.
    Very musical tube. I'll give it some more time and then add it to the write-up.
     
  14. SKiring

    SKiring Friend

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    Though not for the Vali2, my Sylvania 6CG7/6FQ7s are absolutely phenomenal in my Valhalla2. I absolutely love them.
     
  15. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    @Changeling - nice comparison. I especially appreciate the list of tubes including the approximate tube costs. This helps in deciding whether to chase after a tube or not. I tend to prefer tubes that are either current production or readily available NOS. Unobtanium isn't helpful as you have become aware.
     
  16. FallingObjects

    FallingObjects Pay It Forward

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    @digitaldave I only have the stock tubes to compare against, but the EH6922's are an improvement against the stock tubes for sure. Things you can probably immediately notice is better mid range 'fullness', and less hiss on high gain.

    Plus they're pretty much the same price as replacement tubes direct from Schiit (taking into account shipping, etc), so barring anything else, they're at least a worthwhile upgrade for the price category. Gold pins may or may not be an improvement over non-gold-pins, but I went with them anyways.
     
  17. digitaldave

    digitaldave Acquaintance

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  18. RiflemanFirst

    RiflemanFirst New

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    Hello all,

    Perhaps my Google-Fu is weak or I missed something entirely while searching SBAF, but has anyone else tried the Genalex Gold Lion E88CC tube in their Vali 2 and compared it to other tubes? I'll admit that I am very much still a noob to tubes, but I found that it is better in pretty much every way (at least to my ears/preferences) compared to the Schiit supplied NOS 6BZ7. Meaning better quantity & quality of bass, no harsh treble or sibilance, and no perceived loss of clarity or detail. I am very happy with the Gold Lion E88CC and having a hard time justifying spending more money on different tubes. I even bought a couple extra for when this one finally reaches the end of its life.

    TL;DR - If anyone has directly compared the Genalex Gold Lion E88CC to other tubes in the Vali 2, I'd really like to know what differences you heard.
     
  19. DigMe

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    Dude, if you are pleased with it then stop right there and be pleased with it! I mean you'll probably get some responses and all but don't get so caught up in the nervosa that you tell yourself that you start to change your mind about being happy when you're perfectly happy. :) I've got a few tubes but two were giveaways and 1 was super cheap on Ebay just to satisfy my 6GC7 curiosity.
     
  20. mrflibble

    mrflibble Friend

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    Try page 32 of this thread :)
     

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