Personalized Equalization with in-ear mics

Discussion in 'Computer Audiophile: Software, Configs, Tools' started by randomg, Nov 16, 2016.

  1. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    Oh, so the foam is similar to comply tips? Those tiny microphones are usually omni-directional for most audio frequencies, so with an open type of foam it could work with the mic facing the eardrum.
    Overall looks like it's pretty similar to what I use then, except that the foam probably doesn't seal off the ear canal completely. Dunno why the measurements are so different. Could be the mic.
     
  2. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    Sorry for bringing the whole thread off-topic with another discussion with ultrabike, hahaha. Maybe we will come to a conclusion at some point.

    BTW: @Hekeli thanks for the measurement. Got me to think about the accuracy of my measurements and my methods.

    I will check my microphone compensation again tonight. The difference at 6kHz could be differences between our ears.
    The difference in the upper mids could be pads, mic, coupling, etc. It could be anything, but 5db seems like a bit too much. I guess there are a number of factors coming into play here.
    I'm pretty sure the difference in the bass comes down to mics and that I removed the rear foam. I think it looks similar without my mic compensation, so it could be the mic, but that doesn't explain that I get less extension. Might be pads, glasses, hair or other general seal issue. Again, I will check my compensation again tonight, it's possible it's overdone.

    I will check how my measurements look in the upper treble in a comply tip or similar. I was always a little puzzled why I got such a huge 12db dip after 10kHz and that yours don't have it makes me wonder. On the other hand some mics have huge resonances around 15kHz. The foam does seem like a good idea, though.
     
  3. randomg

    randomg New

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    For some reason the headphone community has popular to hate headphones. Remember when everyone used to hate on the hd600 for it's veil and now it's considered one of the best balanced? Now it feels like people are doubling down on hating the hd800, talking about how it does nothing well, then it ended up being the most favored in Tyll's last high end headphone compro... I get it though, people like to hate what's popular and feel enlightened.

    For what it's worth, an sr-009 system is 10k... Mine cost me $1300, $1600 if you include what I'm finding are high priced microphones and an equalizer. Is my HD600 a better value? Yes. Is an equalized HD800 better in every way (and many of those ways very noticeable)? To my ears, yes.

    I don't know what to make of this thread now, but I think my next step will be to switch to the other recording program, and make an attempt to post the variations I find when taking multiple measurements, as well as the variations I see between different peoples' ears.
     
  4. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    @randomg, AFAIK @Tyll referred to the HD800 as cold and lifeless or something along those lines. TBH I never liked it. I could stand it after some mods and synergies. VoldeMike not only applied mods to his HD800s, he also did a lot of synergy work. It still had some issues.

    As far as the HD600s, there was this veil deal at HF. I never thought it was veiled, or whatever that means. I also don't tend to swing around between this and that set of cans.

    I do know a lot of folks love their HD800s. Proly most of them modded them, use synergy, or like you, equalize them.

    As far as this thread, it is what you make it.

    It seems to me you considered the HD800 the "objective" pinnacle.

    1) I really hate the "objective" key word, for whatever reason. I know what it means in this context. Measures great. I let it be known why I don't feel the HD800 is super special measurements wise.

    2) Equalization IMO is a perfectly valid path to get the most out of your gear. And so is pretty much everything else. So I agree with you in this regard, as long as you don't abuse equalization to the point that it makes things worse.

    3) Based on your measurements, be careful about using them to correct your cans. It is likely that you will overcorrect the areas where your outter ear imposes gain. @Serious methodology/mic/whatever seems to somehow compensate itself (a bit randomly, but it does). Your methodology does not seem to compensate itself. So be careful.

    4) I actually don't like the SR-009, and would proly equalize the crap of it. The only stat I like at this point is the HE60 (maybe the HE90), and Milos DIY cans. So 10K for something I don't like and need to equalize heroically to match my preferences is hard for me to justify. But there are merits to this approach. I know @anetode choose this path and seems happy with the results.

    Do what you feel is right. And report results. I'm actually rather interested on how things turn out for you.
     
  5. shipsupt

    shipsupt Admin

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    It's not worth anything. Unless they start giving out thrifty beaver medals at the audiophile Olympics for having a budget rig you love, it's pointless to keep comparing systems to the $(Insert Large # here) SR-009 set up. I think we all get it, you don't have to spend big money for great sound (Crazy if you think you do!!), but that doesn't equate to "doing it cheap is the only right way" to get the sound YOU want. There is good budget gear out there and unfortunately some expensive gear that's really good too.
     
  6. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    A well though out $10K system is likely to outperform a well though out $1.6K system. There is just much more options that may resonate best with one's own preferences.

    $1.6K will actually not give me what I want in terms of out performing my HD600s. It might afford me a better DAC, and a better amp though.

    At this point, price no object I would go for an HE60 (would have to spend more time to make absolutely sure), and then consider driving requirements for it. If HE60 are no go because they are unobtainium, I would go to daddy Milos (@n3rdling), and through him loads of cash to build me some ... Or do it myself if all else fails.

    I'm not price no object though. But I try not to delude myself into thinking that there are not better things for more $.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2016
  7. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    @randomg, again, do report back on your results equalizing your HD800s. It may indeed end up giving you what you are looking for.
     
  8. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    Checked the mic. It's definitely not the mic. The calibrated response from 400Hz on matches the UMIK with calibration file almost perfectly, but the bass part is a little weird. I'll have to see what turns out to be true. Maybe there's a 0.5db step from 400Hz to 300Hz, which would be very weird, but I also don't believe that the UMIK calibration is that inaccurate. But I do think that my older measurements are fine.

    I've still not tried Comply tips yet, but I really don't think it'll shift measurements closer to what you'd expect the in-ear measurements to look like. In this case I still assume that it's just differences with the mic, foam vs eartip, headphones and ears that make the measurements look so different. And I don't think my mic calibration is off.

    I still feel that using in-ear measurements to EQ headphones is a much better starting point than almost any other type of measurement, at least when comparing my own measurements of different couplers, free field, etc. with my in-ear ones. Really the most important thing when EQing is to use common sense and your ears. Don't rely too much on the measurements and if it sounds bad, it sounds bad.
     
  9. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    @randomg, this is solid advice.
     
  10. randomg

    randomg New

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    Did you read this thread? It's full of hd800 sucks, it's not worth what it costs, other headphones (I'm not sure which ones, besides a few stats) "destroy" it in distortion. But I guess I can't point out that these better measuring headphones cost almost an order of magnitude more than what already aren't worth what they cost.... I guess I'll think twice next time asking for comments if every response will be combative....
     
  11. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    AFAIK you are trying to equalize a set of headphones. And my best guess is that this because you are not 100% satisfied with them.

    Note also that my current favorite headphones are the HD600s, and their distortion characteristics are awesome from mid bass and up. But take it south of there and things are not going to be perfect.

    My favorite headphones are not everybody's favorite headphones. And neither are yours. Such is life.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2016
  12. randomg

    randomg New

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    I'm not sure what favorite headphones has to do with it, I was only looking for some mentions of headphones that measured better, I didn't really get any from this thread besides the sr009, but when I mentioned price I was told it was pointless to compare it to the sr009...

    As I think you gathered from my posts, my goal more or less has been some sort of objective perfection (despite it not being obtainable), not necessarily what I enjoy the most. I get lost in the music with my hd600s more often, but I find the soundstage and what I've found to be more detail (which I think is a transient response/csd thing) of the hd800 to be a different kind of enjoyment.

    This in ear technique isn't perfect by any means, but I think it's a good way to get rid of the 6 Khz peak, since it seems to move around dependent on whose ear is listening.

    I'd rather deal with and try to tune out the 6 khz peak than give up the imaging/soundstage when compared to the hd600.
     
  13. ultrabike

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    Got it.

    Again, from mid bass to treble, IMO the HD6x0 is hard to beat. Even distortion wise. I'm not 100% sure about the HD800s, but it seems they do a little better distortion wise in the bass area. Though not spectacular.

    If you are only concerned about the 6 kHz peak, you might be able to do something about it with equalization, but it is possible that such a peak is also partially responsible for some of the soundstage characteristics of the HD800s.

    In many things, one may gain on something and sacrifice something else.

    You could also try equalizing your HD600s for soundstage if it's the path of minimum resistance. This I dunno.
     
  14. landroni

    landroni Friend

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    Could someone remove "objective" from the thread title? "Objective Personalized" seems like an oxymoron, especially if using the ears for the tuning...
     
  15. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    Don't get sad because @ultrabike doesn't like your favorite headphone. If you'd spend more time to understand this place before taking offense, you'd notice the senior members all have very different tastes. This is a case of you disliking his opinion rather than some kind of concerted attack on the HD800 which is probably over-revered on SBAF in general.
     
  16. TwoEars

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    @Serious @ultrabike

    Well - I for one very much enjoyed your discussion back and forth. I didn't have anything to add so I just kept quiet, but it was a pretty interesting discussion I think. If you have any further thoughts or findings I'll read that too.
     
  17. shipsupt

    shipsupt Admin

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    From "Oh my, I can't beleive no one is responding to my post, I'm so sad" to this...

    My point is you're now mixing your "objective" equalization discussion with your subjective view of budget and value. You're the OP, if you wanted this to be a discussion about budget and value you should have framed it that way and changed your title.

    If you can't take a little heat rando, you might consider that this is not the place for you.
     
  18. randomg

    randomg New

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    What would this be exactly? I associated the soundstage with the different driver and enclosure, but maybe that's only because the FR is still different on my tweaked 800 than on the 600, so could be why the soundstage still sounds so much different.

    Yeah, I meant I was using a tool to modify it, instead of my own sense of hearing, I'm not set on it.

    You're right, I shouldn't have mentioned price. But I was expecting some more similarly priced headphones mentioned when I was told something out performs it, I just can't detach the sr009 from the price. I'm sure the new orpheus destroys the hd800 in everything, and that's a valid mention when saying the hd800 sucks because mentioning price changes the conversation to budget.

    First post, I got sucked into replying to what I considered unsubstantiated attacks on my favorite headphone, it won't happen again.
     
  19. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    @randomg, I think analytic FR signatures offer better soundstage. Consider the AKG k7xx. You could experiment bumping up the 2 to 10 kHz frequency range and see if soundstage changes.

    TBH, I wouldn't concern myself too much with soundstage because headphones cannot do this right. There is no cross channel (s). But if you want to experiment with it and see if that is the sound you like try working around the upper mids and the lower to mid treble.
     
  20. randomg

    randomg New

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    Yeah, now I'm curious, I'll have to try cutting out everything above 2K and see if the 600 and 800 all of a sudden sound the same. I can't help but feel Sennheiser felt angling the driver towards the ear and messing with the tried and true he60/90/hd600 enclosure had effects (positive and negative) on the sound that couldn't be replicated with a different FR. I guess I can see for myself.

    I imagine my next post will be a bunch of graphs trying to show quality of repeatability and also differences between people's ears. Should I put this here or in another thread?
     

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