Phono pre-amp discussion

Discussion in 'Vinyl Nutjob World: Turntable and Related Gear' started by JoshMorr, Jan 11, 2016.

  1. Melvillian

    Melvillian Friend

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    Marvey mentioned the Bottlehead Eros earlier in the thread. Has anyone here heard one?
     
  2. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    Not sure if I should post here or in the DIY sub-forum, but does anyone have experience with the Hypnotoad DIY phono stages? Looks like audiokarma's image hosting is down, but I was hoping to find a schematic or PCB somewhere. Building for a AT440MLB or AT33PTG/II

    If not, does anyone have recommendations for a simple, inexpensive DIY phono stage design? Was hoping to spend less than the price of the bottlehead kits.
     
  3. dmckean44

    dmckean44 In a Sherwood S6040CP relationship

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    Tavish 6SL7, get the JFETS installed.
     
  4. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    I don't know why the Mani gets so kicked around. I only suspect that it is a) low price point, b) a lean sounding machine that might seem it is taking away the "warmth" out of the vinyl.

    Yes I have a Mani.
    Yes I know it is budget.
    Yes I know there are better that are more expensive.

    I have tried a Rega Fono Mini, a Cambridge Audio Azur 551P, and the Mani totally blew them away as far as detail, depth, not to mention more options for gain and MC option. My vinyl records came alive and sounds much more realistic.

    My only complaints is that it is a bit lean and strident sounding on the top end. The top end is compounded by my 2M Blue. My only suspcion is that the power supply and the choice of AD op amps is the reason here as opposed to using other type op amps (Burr Brown..ahem), as AD op amps have mostly sounded lean and clean. And too bad we all can't upgrade the power supply due to the AC designed power supply. But heck, for clean detail and to get the most on a budget, I cannot imagine much else better in the price range.

    There was some discussion about Schiit possibly developing a tube phono pre, but it would have to be at a higher price point and may not be worth it. With their new found way of powering a tube with dual rails like the Vali2, I keep waiting.

    And since I am talking about it, the Cambridge Azur 551P and 651P had discrete inputs and a passive EQ. I heard on another forum that upgrading the power supply on these can really get these singing. I sold mine, but I am curious about what upgrading the power supply on these budget units can really do.

    PS - do not attempt to turn on and off the Mani or change the gain while on and plugged in, unless you don't like your speakers. The DC servo circuit is fierce with this one.
     
  5. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    Price is not an issue around here. There is a thread for the cheaper TC-750 phono that has a lot of praise. Although they do recommend mods that bring the price way up.
     
  6. Ziva

    Ziva Friend

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    Curious for more detailed impressions on the Tavish (either the above or the more expensive version). Haven't seen many reviews or comparisons with similarly priced units.
     
  7. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    Anyone know what sort of phono preamp dj's use? Would they be considered good for audiophile purposes?
     
  8. dmckean44

    dmckean44 In a Sherwood S6040CP relationship

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    DJs normally use the preamps built in to their mixing consoles and they suck. You can also buy stand alone ones like this:

    https://www.amazon.com/ART-Audio-DJPRE-Turntable-Preamplifier/dp/B000AJR482

    I had one of those once and the sound was completely flat, no imaging at all.
     
  9. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    Thanks, clubs are a noisy environment so probably makes sense that they just use a phono that gets the job done.

    Is there such thing as a high quality pro phono? It seems like you would want a good one for mastering LPs.
     
  10. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

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    Most DJ controllers are awful for SQ. Double so for the phono section. Since about 5 years ago the vast majority of controllers and mixers will put the phono signal into digital before sending out the built in DAC which is usually a POS.

    Exceptions exist in the very high end for example the play model 1. Some digital implementations such as Rane sound good due to good akm4490 implementation. All Pioneer stuff sounds extremely metallic/harsh/digital.

    Older all analog Rane mixers (ex: empath, ttm57) have good phono sections (a bit warm but otherwise nice) and can be found for $500 or less used.
     
  11. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    So they just amplify the signal and then do RIAA in the digital domain? Interesting
     
  12. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

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    Pretty much. All the controller fx and features are done in digital because its cheap to implement and flashy lights sell better than actual technical merit. Most of them sound quite bad as a result. I normally play on a little Akai AMX for portability and I only use the onboard eq as a last resort because it sounds terrible. The mid/higher end DJ mixers and pro audio soundboards sound better (half decent to good) due to more dsp power and better algorithms however at best (IMO) they are still on the level of a moderately competant dedicated DAC. You will not find a DJ mixer/controller anywhere near the level of Gungnir Multibit or Yggdrasil or DAVE. Not even close. More like Modi Multibit at BEST.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2018
  13. BleaK

    BleaK Friend

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    Just read this and found a demo used in store in the next town for a great price. Coming here tomorrow, can't wait! Thank you for the recommendation! :)
     
  14. Tuck16

    Tuck16 New

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    I'm headed to my local hifi shop this weekend to explore phono pre-amps. My take-away from this thread thus far is that synergy is key to making a good phono purchase.

    My system will be: Clearaudio Concept > Shelter 501III MC > ?? > PrimaLuna Dialog Premium Integrated Amp > Elac F5 (or my HD800S).

    Suggestions for less than $1,000 that might work well with my set-up are greatly appreciated.
     
  15. SquiGGlez

    SquiGGlez Acquaintance

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    Rotary mixers have some pretty good phono sections in them but they are very expensive. Most basic 2 channel mixers sound pretty garb imo. Some people like David Mancuso actually DJ without a mixer at all and just play records back to back without mixing them on expensive hi-fi gear like thorens or sp-10 decks and Mark Levinson stuff.

    Anyways these Japanese mixers are supposed to have really good phono stages in them that's meant to be like an update to the UREI 1620, possibly the best there is in a mixer from what people say:

    http://www.alpharecordingsystem.com/model4100_en.html
     
  16. Stapsy

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    I think synergy is more of a personal preferrence than an outright rule. Perhaps if you describe your current system and what you would like to improve it would be easier to give specific recommendations.

    It also might help if you know what brands the shop carries.
     
  17. Tuck16

    Tuck16 New

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    Thanks. The shop has ProJect, Lehmann, Clearaudio, Musical Fidelity, Vincent, Rega.

    The system I will use is the same as the one I listed in my first email: Clearaudio Concept > Shelter 501III MC > ?? > PrimaLuna Dialog Premium Integrated Amp > Elac F5 (or my HD800S)
     
  18. Stapsy

    Stapsy Friend

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    Sorry I should have been a little more clear, I meant to describe the sound of your system and what changes you want to make to that.

    I am not sure what part of that list you own/heard or if that is just what you are thinking of buying. Perhaps at least you could give an overall preferrence for sound or what you are trying to achieve?

    I have only heard some of the Project and Lehmann stuff and thought it was quite good. Out of that list I think I would go for a Lehmann Black Cube. I think that is one of the better cheap options for a quiet, neutralish, and high quality MC compatible phono stage. Perhaps not as great of a value compared to some other overachievers like the RSA F-117, but I don’t think it is bad.

    There are other options if you want to go outside what your dealer carries such as Mofi Studiophono or Musical Surroundings Phonomena that will also work well with your MC cart. Another that I am interested in based on some positive SBAF reviews of its bigger brother is the Avid Pellar.

    If you want used you can always go with a classic like the EAR 834p which can be found for ~$1k.

    I think any of those is likely to give you a nice neutral sound. IMO the $1000 price range for phonos is a bit of a dead zone. I think you get better value spending a little bit less or a little bit more.
     
  19. Tuck16

    Tuck16 New

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    Ah, I see, thanks. I used to have a Yamaha A-S1000 (which has a built-in phono stage). I recently upgraded to the Prima Luna, and triggered the need to also find a phono stage. I guess I would be looking for something that is neutral and doesn’t act as a bottleneck for my cart and can adequately support the amp.

    I ended up jumping on a Pro-Ject Tube Box DS. Apparently Pro-Ject just discontinued it and it’s available for a nice discount. Seemed like a decent value, and I can trade-in if it ends up not being what I hoped for.

    Thanks for the advice about $1,000 threshold. It helped temper any urges to move beyond sub-500 options.
     
  20. Azteca

    Azteca Friend

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