Plankton... and the ability to resolve properly

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by Mikoss, Sep 14, 2016.

  1. Madaboutaudio

    Madaboutaudio Friend

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    I believe Mr. Hans has a perfect description of what Plankton means:
     
  2. TomHP

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    Am I missing something or is Plankton just micro-details?
     
  3. JoeDoe

    JoeDoe Acquaintance

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    Originally posted in the wrong thread, but ah what the heck, may as well chime in.

    I'm new to SBAF fellas, but I'm a long time head-fier and classically trained musician (is there a way for that not to sound snobby?).

    I like Marv's idea that a lack of plankton is unsettling to the listener. As a percussionist, I can attest to that. Whether it be on drumset, xylophone, or timpani, there are small nuance-y sounds that each contribute, and should be present to complete the characteristic picture each create.

    If I'm behind the kit, you should be able to hear whether I'm riding on a cymbal with a wooden-tipped or nylon-tipped drumstick - one is much 'pingy-er' than the other. Every cymbal strike should not sound like a prerecorded drum sample from an electronic pad. The same goes for hearing the decay of timpani or xylophone strikes. And well, guitar slides, upright fret buzz, etc.

    Without those tiny little details, to me anyway, we get into electronic territory, where only the tone of an instrument is heard, leaving out it's attack (music school-speak for beginning of a sound) and it's decay.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
  4. Kunlun

    Kunlun cat-alyzes cat-aclysmic cat-erwauling - Friend

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    It sounds like plankton is one of several key components to having good reproduction of timbre*.




    *kinda obsessed with both timbre and plankton at the moment.
     
  5. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    People used to driving synthesizers and even making patches on wavetable-based instruments are more than familiar with attack and decay (as well as sustain and release). Moreover, it's not uncommon to map attack to note-on velocity.

    (You'd probably do better at "sounding snobby" without those stray apostrophes, too :D)
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
  6. Mikoss

    Mikoss Friend

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    Yes, I would agree with this. It extends beyond simply having a system that can resolve micro details... Plankton is also tied into the ability for tonal nuance, depth and weight (gradient of volume).
     
  7. Mikoss

    Mikoss Friend

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    This is where I believe that tube gear can sometimes do very well... I used to play the drums myself and agree with your assessment of the nuances between stick types, and where the skin is being hit. A well recorded kit not only includes the strike, but also the weight of the head... The body of the tom and its reverb make all the difference between simply hearing sound and hearing actual music, as individual instruments creating the song.
     
  8. Huxleigh

    Huxleigh Almost "Made"

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    Of my amps, the best one at resolving plankton (as I hear it) is the Sonett. The Jodie and M3 both do a fine job with micro detail, but they don't convey acoustic spatiality and ambience to the same degree that the Sonett is capable of.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
  9. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    Why does it sound like this to you? We've felt that many good headphones can have correct timbre (via flat and smooth tonal response) but still be missing plankton. Usually when we talk timbre it's the timbre of the headphone rather than the timbre of the instrument/vocal/etc. being played back.

    I suppose if we want to speak more broadly we could say that plankton does tend to enhance timbre in the sense that it lets more of the microinformation through of the sonic image that is being reproduced. But again, that's the timbre of what is being reproducing. A good headphone should aim to minimize any of its own timbre.
     
  10. Kunlun

    Kunlun cat-alyzes cat-aclysmic cat-erwauling - Friend

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    @OJneg cf Hans as quoted by madaboutaudio and JoeDoe seem to include elements of timbre in their definitions of plankton, just responding to that. However, I agree that's far from the only variable and you can have a less detailed earphone with very good timbre (presumably with better plankton resolution, such an earphone would be even better). And yes, I mean reproduction of instrumental timbre, not something added.

    Just to bring it back to plankton, is there an example of a headphone/earphone that has excellent reproduction of plankton but imperfect reproduction of timbre somewhere along the FR? I'm sure there is, just want to hear from your greater experience.
     
  11. Huxleigh

    Huxleigh Almost "Made"

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    Not directed at me, but I'd suggest the Elear fits this description.
     
  12. Kunlun

    Kunlun cat-alyzes cat-aclysmic cat-erwauling - Friend

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    Everybody's welcome to reply!

    If my train gets in on time, I might be able to hear the Utopia at the NYC meet...
     
  13. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Time to pull some stuff out of my ass and also explain how I use some terms.

    I believe timbre is usually defined as a combination of tonal, pitch (related to tone and should be less of an issue with digital music), intensity (what is that, dynamics? loudness?), and I'd add detail or plankton characteristics that make things sound, well, like they're supposed to in real life.

    A bit of an aside, we all know not all audio terms are used with the textbook definitions in mind. Not the best example, but I know "warm" to some means "a little bit extra in the low end but otherwise neutral" or "slightly rolled in the treble but otherwise neutral." And in a lot of ways, they are often the same thing in a relative sense but still can sound different. I remember having a discussion with someone about an amp. I called it a bit polite or laid-back due to a slightly soft, possibly rolled treble response, but they called it warm, which I wouldn't have used to describe it myself. It was pretty eye opening to have that simple chat. Tricky stuff. Anyway, back to timbre.

    I would argue the first and most important step in getting timbre right is frequency response. And tone/FR is always the first thing I look for. To me, that's the basis or foundation of sound in most ways. It's kind of like a TV or monitor. Color accuracy is the first thing I look for before contrast, speed, input lag, etc. (though ideally you want it all). Doesn't matter how detailed your setup is or how much plankton it extracts if the tone is all screwed up. It still will never sound right.

    Once you get tone right, that's when you start worrying about details, plankton, etc. Say you have an acoustic guitar. Tonally, it might sound right, which is the first step, but what if the details are so glossed over in vaseline that you make a vintage Gibson J-45 (with metal strings) sound like a $50 nylon guitar? And, yes, improper tone can cause issues with details, especially large dips in the mids and treble that contain this information. Then you have stuff like capturing ambiance, resonance, body, air, etc. Also a form of detail or plankton in its own way. Doesn't do you any good if you can't hear the rich resonance coming from the guitar's body either.

    I think at the bottom of the list would be this "intensity." I guess that could be dynamics, overall volume, liveliness, "pop," or whatever you want to call it. Think a cymbal. You get tone right, hear all the details and nuances, hear the decay, but the liveliness and intensity just isn't there. Well, that too doesn't make it sound real either then. (Side note, I know most recordings are mixed so that cymbals are actually pretty tame...audible, but not loud like in real life.)

    All in all, how real does it sound? Does it capture that live feel as best as possible given how the music is recorded, mastered, mixed, etc.?

    I could be waaay off.
     
  14. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    I test transducers for plankton with poorly recorded music. There are a ton of albums where you can't hear the main melodic or rhythmic line on unresolving transducers with no plankton. A lot of stuff is mixed on uncompressed, passive near fields just so that most instruments are audible and they don't give a f**k what you hear on your setup as they're not shooting for massive commercial success and the record will sell the few thousand CDs and 100 to 1000 LP press run easily over a couple years if the music isn't totally incompetent. Or the audience is a bunch of drunks who just want to punch each other in the face.

    I remember cranking some super muddy Dutch black metal (Kaeck - Stormkult) on Focal CMS 65s in a home studio and the things just couldn't resolve the buried in layers of mud snare. The snare just did not exist. I feet like I might as well be listening in a car or something when thin guitar tones get BURIED under engine noise. On the HD 600, 650 and NS10 Pros (or rightside up Studios) ? Snare was there and the kicks audible. The same with a lot of rhythm section detail, bass lines, rhythm guitar parts in old warm/muddy/shitty 70s-80s records like Angel Witch, Powerslave, or the first Megadeth which is the same thing but all treble. They definitely heard that shit in the studio. Old school 1960s two mics in a room orchestral music craves REAL DETAIL and FALSE DETAIL (boosted treble)

    On closed cans, playnars, estats, home stereos, ghetto blasters, car speakers, most powered monitors (HS 8s are so bad), et cetera you're just fucked as they lack real detail and revealing power. Try playing some of the most what the f**k is going on, bashed out extreme metal classics like Reek of Putrefaction, In the Nightside Eclipse, or Mortal Throne of Nazarene on magnepans, AKGs, hifimen, or your class d HS5s you got for 150 bucks at guitar center. You're just fucked. Oooh you bought multi thousand dollar playnar/estat? Almost all pinch harmonics and string bends on guitars are gone. Immolation sounds hilarious. Blue Hawaii -> SR-009 can't resolve that Lars taped two kick drums together on the Black Album for more reverb. Good luck telling that Bill Steer did the same with amp cabs for the rhythm guitars on Heartwork. Playnars/estats don't have the sustain to do so.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    ^

    ON TIMBRE

    Timbre, overtones, harmonics

    Mostly FR, distortion, and some other things. What makes a Taylor guitar sound different from Yamaha. What makes the Abyss sound different from the HEK. What makes Metrum Menuet sound different from X-Sabre. BA IEMs sound different from DDs.

    Transient response to a smaller extent. Plankton and dynamics only play a minor role if any at all.

    Examples: HE-560 and LCD-X have a slightly plasticky timbre. Vega DAC on Coarse mode USB has an artificial robotic timbre.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2016
  16. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    I agree. You need good tone or else plankton and resolution don't matter. That's why RealTek sounds better than tons of ESS garbage. So many headphones are so tonally wrong that if they were speakers, they would be best served as fuel for a homeless guy's trash can fire. The amount of thousand dollar or more headphones with acceptable enough tone out of the box you can count on your fingers:

    Focal Utopia and that still had issues with berilliumness, honk, and shout. I wouldn't buy it but I love that it's not entirely tonally fucked and is the most uncompressed headphone I've ever heard.

    f**k this is hard. Yeah I'm just going to say the Focal Utopia as the upper endgame playnars and estats are trashy and the Koss thing that's less so and mostly tonally balanced but still trash ortho sound is 999.99 dollars. The Orpheuses are supposedly similar if you get past the built in Sabre crap. Sony MA 900 > Chifiman HE1000

    People just need to face the music that JBL 305s > Faildeze, Chifiman, and Mr. Shitters for 200 bucks.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
  17. Kunlun

    Kunlun cat-alyzes cat-aclysmic cat-erwauling - Friend

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    It may seem to you guys that you are repeating yourselves in defining something that may seem obvious, but it's very helpful, thanks!

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
  18. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    One of my favorite headphones fits into this unfortunately.
     
  19. PoochZag

    PoochZag The Shadow knows - Friend

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    800?

    I would characterize it as such personally
     
  20. johnjen

    johnjen Doesn’t want to be here but keeps posting anyways

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    Plankton…

    I debated with myself whether or not to even write this up, as in my mind this topic gets rather complicated and deep, fairly quickly.
    So I figure I’ll just provide more of a TL;DR version.

    At this point I still can’t define what plankton is, at least using words alone, though I have an idea what is involved, which includes the experiential, which is decidedly subjective and tends to defy objectification.
    And I have been documenting multiple sonic aspects that to me all contribute to or influence the ability to even be able to perceive plankton, or not.
    So as a result I do have a bunch of descriptors I use to help describe what I believe is involved, all based upon what I hear.

    Bottom line for me, plankton, like spatial cues, dynamics, (both macro and micro), along with listener fatigue, and ‘proper’ dynamic timing of the re-created signal waveform, and given that the transducer can and will faithfully re-create the original signal waveform, all these sonic attributes are the result of the entire system getting dialed into itself.

    IOW when the entire system, as I state it, ‘gets out of it’s own way’ and the original signal is ‘allowed’ to be presented to our ears in it entirety, THEN we will hear all of the acoustic power in the harmonics and spatial cues and in their proper relationship to each other.
    This is where the plankton comes from, from not screwing with the original signal, either by omission or modification to the original signal itself.
    And I have found that when the system is thusly dialed in, it matters to a much lessor extent what the SQ of the source is, even the poorly recorded tracks, (perhaps especially them) become compelling and enticing.

    IOW it ALL becomes compelling and leads to what I call SuperDuperGlue, where you simply can’t take off your headphones (they seem to be glued onto your head) because the music has grabbed your undivided attention, and won’t let go.
    Some have experienced this to one degree or another, while others may never experience this level of SQ either because they simply can’t, or the opportunity to do so may not present itself.

    But once this degree of SQ has been experienced with sufficient duration and you get ‘calibrated’ as a result to what is possible, there is no turning back, no forgetting, nor unhearing what you have experienced.

    This can become a compulsion, this degree of REALNESS,
    to be able to reliably and on demand, repeatedly achieve results that suck us into the heart and soul of the music itself.

    Just my 2¢

    JJ
     

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