Ripping Your Vinyl

Discussion in 'Vinyl Nutjob World: Turntable and Related Gear' started by JK47, Mar 1, 2016.

  1. JK47

    JK47 Guest

    I have a modest setup that consists of a Yamaha MG10XU USB mixer that feeds my Mac Book Air, and is recorded with Audacity. So far I have been happy to be able to bring some of my vinyl rips with me on my extended stays at work (3+ weeks at a time, and I miss my vinyl rig so bad). I would eventually like to get something serious to archive with.

    I believe @Chris F has a Tascam model for his rips, @shaizada has a Korg, and @OJneg has a Hilo Lynx.

    What else do our members have?

    Any tips or techniques would be greatly appreciated.


     
  2. Skyline

    Skyline Double-blindly done with this hobby

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  3. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    I would recommend using a software better than Audacity. I've done rips on Audacity and they never sounded as good as a decent DAW. Audacity relies on older driver stuff.

    Declicking and denoising is a processing issue that you can always opt into. Personally I would never use denoising, as it kills not only the noise floor but also all the low-level information with it. With vinyl you can hear "into" the noise floor. Declicking might be useful for restoring especially bad copies, but for the vast majority of records I would not use it either.
     
  4. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    We need GAIN3 from Mike Moffat!

    I would not denoise. Declick should be applied manually.
     
  5. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

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    I don't like Audacity either. It's free but that's about all it's got going for it. Quality of processing and algorithms it comes in dead last.... For vinyl rips I find iZotope RX is the best processing software by a significant margin.

    Click Repair is my go to choice for declick. I prefer it to iZotope RX declick for everything except badly damaged records (goldmine G or G-).

    My Click Repair settings:
    Declick Strength: 1 Decrackle: Off Wavelet: On Pitch Protection: On Reverse: On

    For acoustic music I think auto declick is OK. I've listening a lot and IMO with my settings the false positive rate is somewhere between very very low and non existent.

    For anything electronic where you could get something resembling a square waveform or music that intentionally has noise inserted I would strongly avoid auto-declick and do it manually.


    I like my TASCAM DA-3000 a lot but I never use the DSD functionality and going back and forth to swap out SD cards gets tiresome. Were I to do it again I think I would get the Hilo as I think it's flexibility is unmatched by anything else on the market.
     
  6. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    As I'm getting ever-more-rapidly sucked back into vinyl, I decided to actually try a few needle drops - just to see how good the results were (and to get past my more-FOMO-like paranoia about wanting to buy both a CD and vinyl version of each album for both quality/convenience purposes).

    So far I've been more than pleasantly surprised.

    I'm using my turntable with a Linn Akurate DSM/1. This has a pretty nice built-in MM/MC switchable phono-stage and, like all the analog inputs on the unit, it feeds straight into a very solid internal ADC, and then it applies the RIAA EQ in the digital domain. Rather than going though another DAC->ADC cycle, I'm just taking the S/PDIF output straight off the Linn and into the digital input on a little Tascam DR-100MkII.

    This is simple and straightforward, only uses one cable, and means I'm not messing around setting recording levels and so on. Of course, there's a flexibility trade-off there and, I would expect, an impact to quality.

    Then I'm running the resultant 24 bit/96 KHz .WAV files through Vinyl Studio for some minimal editing and splitting.

    A quick play of a fresh, just-cleaned, 180gr version of "Hotel California" yielded very little noise - to the point where I haven't bothered with de-clicking yet as any clicks and noise on this rip are only audible in the lead-in/track gaps. That's something I'm going to explore more, I'm sure, as I start looking at noisier discs.

    A quick test of dynamic range of that recording yielded an average score of "15" (per the methodology used by the Dynamic Range Database).

    Certainly sounds better than the "auto-rip" files I got via Amazon when I ordered the album!

    So ... encouraged and looking to do more!
     
  7. shipsupt

    shipsupt Admin

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    This issue has created a sort of moral dilemma for me. If I purchase an album on vinyl I feel like it might be OK for me to go find and download a high quality rip, for free... I mean, I paid the artist for the content already, right? I just want to be able to listen when I'm away from my vinyl rig.

    But knowing how some artist struggle I feel like maybe I'm being a cheap bugger and should pay for the other format.

    Your solution seems more "in the moral clear" to me... but certainly a lot more work!

    Sorry, this is a bit off topic for sure.
     
  8. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    I have to admit, I didn't even think about it from a moral perspective ... it was purely a quality/convenience (well, and cost) concern for me - since I tend to flip-flop between whether I think vinyl or digital is superior. Though I will say that I prefer vinyl, from an enjoyment-perspective, when I 'm going to listen to a whole album.

    Auto-rip fixes the convenience issue, although the quality is hugely variable and some of the files sound like they were done using a toy microphone held up to the speaker on a 70's vintage Fidelity HF43. But then even the good files are lossy, and it means you're limited to buying from Amazon.

    Given the results on the first few I've done though, I think I'm just going to buy the vinyl, do the needle drop, and between that and TIDAL, call it good.

    ...

    Getting back on topic, I can't decide if I want to take things further, given how encouraged I am so far, and change/upgrade the aspects of the system that matter in this context (a seperate phono stage, switchable/software EQ, higher-resolution recording, other recording/processing software). Or just focus the time on the turntable and vinyl for a bit.
     
  9. JK47

    JK47 Guest

    What ever you decide, save your previous rips, so you can compare to the upgrades in your vinyl rig. I do, and it's very interesting and helpful. Changes in the vinyl chain have a greater impact on sound than they do in the digital domain.

    I'm interested in comparing my Tascam DA-3000 to the Schiit ADC that's been heavily hinted/easter egged recently by Mike Moffat and @Marvey.
     
  10. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Storage is certainly cheap enough to do that. So far, the few albums I've ripped I've kept the original capture files, and then the tagged/split individual files, and that put me on a path to having the "old" rips. I say "old" ... we're talking a week or so! It's been a fun week though ... new record-cleaning machine, digital recorder, 25 new albums (a mix of stuff I had on CD/download and new stuff).

    One decision that's been essentially made for me is opting for a better digital recorder. I was looking at the DA-3000 and figured I'd try out something simpler, and also portable (for other reasons), to start with - especially where I wasn't too concerned with ADC performance (that's handled in the DSM/1). So I bought the Tascam DR-100MkII - after a LOT of reading. And that was because it was basically the cheapest portable unit with S/PDIF input.

    Today, I notice that Tascam just released a Mk III version ... that has all the features the Mk II was missing, as well as upgraded ADCs, DACs and support for higher sample rates, a better interface, more storage and so on. And I'm well inside my return window, so I just pulled the trigger on that upgrade (it's like $140 difference, so an easy choice).

    Thinking I'll do the raw captures at 24/192, mark them up, and keep those as the "archival" copies - which will also be the files I play when I just want to listen to the entire album but aren't around my turntable. And then down-sample to 24/96 and tag/fix/split the files for inclusion in my general digital library.

    ...

    Very interested to see what you think of the DA-3000 vs. the hinted-at Schiit ADC!
     
  11. Dino

    Dino Friend

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    In reading the hints on a possible Schiit ADC (and especially the speculation on the "Schiit Happens" thread on Head-Fi) I have gotten the impression that it might be more of a professional product ($$$). I hope my impression is wrong. I would love one for $1000 or less for needledrops.

    (A Professional and a Consumer model would be ideal, assuming it actually occurs.)
     
  12. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Having a number of "professional" products in my home studio, I have to wonder if the pricing there might not be better than some of the stuff that shows up in the "audiophile" space! ;)
     
  13. JK47

    JK47 Guest

    Poached this from the theory on new Schiit thread,

    Umm, so @baldr has posted something pretty interesting in his HF thread;

    Q: How hard would it be to add an analog-digital converter to Mani?

    A: It would be a superior engineering solution to put the A/D module in a separate box. It would be a very interesting goal to produce such a box and have it available by say, late winter, at an affordable price.


    http://www.head-fi.org/t/784471/what-a-long-strange-trip-its-been-robert-hunter/975#post_12790327

    One of my reasons for purchasing the DA-3000 was it's S/PDIF out, and using it as a digital transport to feed my Gungnir Multibit. There has been a lot of talk from experienced friends here regarding the superior performance of S/PDIF feeding the Schiit DAC's rather than USB.

    I ripped a few familiar tracks from vinyl to DSD 64/2.8 (DSD 5.6/128 has drop outs when played on my 2013 MacBook Air). Then they were converted using Tascam's Audio editing software (very simple and easy to use for basic converting and editing) to 24/192 WAV files. I played the files through JRiver to my Gungnir Multibit via USB and then from the DA-3000 via S/PDIF to the Gungnir Multibit. The S/PDIF had a smoother overall sound with less glare, and to my ears reproduced the sound of vinyl better. Maybe it's the power of suggestion or group thought, but my gut tells me S/PDIF is the way to go when feeding my Gungnir Multibit 1 and 0's.
     
  14. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    If there is one thing I've found in all my listening and, especially, in my auditioning of a variety of high-end DACs, USB is something I want to avoid. Since I already have several ways to get a pure S/PDIF output, with NO USB involved at all, I've been more focused on avoiding an unnecessary DAC->ADC step in my recording interface.

    So far, even multi-point, multi-kilo-buck USB-source solutions don't measure up to a simple <$100 TOSLINK or COAX cable - you know, assuming you're not hamstrung by something that can't output anything other than USB and analog.

    I'm looking forward to getting to compare my initial DR-100Mk III PCM rips to the same thing with a DSD-recorder/encoder like the DA-3000.
     
  15. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

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    Pure speculation on my part but I strongly think if Schiit do an ADC it will come in at sub 1K. Unless things have changed over the last year the DA3000 is still the current pro studio ADC bang for buck champ at ~$900 street price so that's where the bar is set. What I am curious about is if Schiit does an ADC will they be able to bring a feature to do multi (4, 6, 8 etc..) track via (firmware based) sync function + external word (master) clock. That would be a real coup at say $500-750 per box if the performance is also killer.

    Moffat did the GAIN system for Mofi so this is right in his wheelhouse. Fingers crossed!
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
  16. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    My hope, and expectation, would also be that it comes in under $1,000 pricing.

    And in doing so, Mike would implement selectable and, indeed, defeat-able, digital/software EQ options, as well as the ability to adjust for load. Can't see them doing external clocking. Can't imagine it'd support DSD (unlike the TASCAM) given their stance on it. But it's almost certainly going to be something that has to be properly checked out, given Mike's prior work in this area.

    ...

    Despite currently sitting at home waiting for Fedex to deliver my DR-100MK3, I'm ever more curious about the DA-3000.
     
  17. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Fedex finally showed up (stayed home so that they could show up after I'd have been home anyway ...) ... so new toys on deck ...

    Toys.jpg

    Very-quick initial impressions:

    The Mk3 is MUCH faster in operation, including start-up/shut-down and doesn't seem to have the limitations of the Mk2 in terms of what functions/features are available when using high-resolution recording.

    The Mk2 does have some advantages though ... slightly more direct external control where it matters (for general use). I prefer the orange backlight. Physical control for input levels on both channels (dial-within-a-dial). Doesn't have a goofy "Hi-Res" audio sticker. The omnis look much more serious. Both power sources are removable (the LiON battery in the MK3 is fixed).

    Time to go do some needle drops and see how the new guy fares ...
     
  18. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Interesting learning curve on doing these needle drops ...

    First, with regards to the new recorder, it's a lot easier to navigate than the "old" one (which I've had for about a week ...) I'm really only using it as an S/PDIF bit-bucket, so there's not much to fiddle with for my current purposes (no level setting etc.). The silly "Hi-Res" sticker came off cleanly. Otherwise it's been pretty smooth. Not really sure there's a real benefit to using the higher sample rate (192 vs. 96), but on a peace-of-mind/FOMO basis I'll stick with it and keep the raw rips from that archived.

    For practical purposes I'm doing my processing on those raw 24/192 files, and then converting down to 24/96 (still probably overkill) and adding those to my library.

    The need to de-click files, so far (all new vinyl, freshly cleaned), has been minimal. Beyond the lead-in and inter-track gaps, there's pretty much no audible noise or clicking, excepting where there's an actual "issue" on the LP. These have been minor. On "New Boots and Panties", just one on the first track and on the last. As part of my experimentation, I let "Vinyl Studio" automatically de-click the files ... and it reduced the clicks everywhere ... except for those two particular clicks, it did a good job. Unfortunately even operating it manually I've not been able to squash those clicks there.

    I gave the same files a quick run through "Click Repair" and it took those issues out instantly, and so far doesn't really seem to be harming much else. I have some playing to do to figure out how to do manual repairs in a timely fashion in this tool, however - and that'd be my preferred way to do it. But, once that's down, I'll probably run it first, and then do the splitting and mark-up in Vinyl Studio.

    Still surprised at the dynamic range I'm seeing ... typically 14 to 17 using the "not necessarily reliable" TT-DR meter. That's post-de-clicking, so shouldn't have any false peaks in it.

    Lots of fun so far ... and lots to learn it seems!
     
  19. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

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    Small update on my process... I've been doing a lot of A/B of declick vs no declick recently and based off this I would avoid using any de-click algorithm on full sides/tracks unless it's absolutely necessary.

    I don't know what exactly causes it - I suspect it's phase or other such issues associated with the interpolation that occurs for each "fix" - but when I listen to post declick files they lose a little bit of "life". The ambiance is very slightly diminished, the singers feel a little more like a recording then "right there in front of me" etc...

    Essentially I've switched to taking out any big/obvious issues manually (time consuming) and letting the rest be. For tracks I know I will play live for a crowd I spend the additional 5-10 minutes going over the track by hand.
     
  20. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

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    Felt this was relevant to the thread:


    Same track

    VPI Prime + Lyra Helikon SL + Audio Alchemy PPA-1
    vs
    Continuum Caliburn + Ypsilon VPS-100/MC16 step up + Audio Technica ART1000
     

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