Sonic Frontiers SFD-1mk2 Vintage DAC for $750 That Stomps Most Modern DACs

Is that a moth amp I spy?

 

It's a moth audio night lite. It's a lamp with a tube as the bulb.

 

I know this is a really old thread, but if anyone happens to have a PCX invoice for the later SFD-2 MkII that's also been upgraded to SE+ spec, it would be much appreciated.

 

I've been reading this thread over and over, and there's a few things I'm having trouble getting straight. Forgive me if they've already been answered, won't be surprised if my reading comprehension has been off lately.

So,
What is different about the Gold face? Is it just cosmetic or was it a different release?
Why do some units have AES inputs vs Toslink? Were there different versions of the SFD or just custom mods after the purchase?

Finally, soundwise what should be my priority when trying to get music from a Mac with USB being the only option?
It seems like you can end up spending around $1500~2000+, not including the price of the SFD to get the alleged optimal performance. That's of course, unless you already happened to have a OR5 or Mutec MC3 laying around.

Not having that budget, I'm struggling to set my priorities for owning this DAC.
Should I look to find a way to convert USB to AES or ST OP? If so, are there any decent budget options?

But then, it seems like I can almost get the SE+ upgrade with the money trying to go AES. I'm guessing the upgrade is around $500+ from parts express? I did see the invoice a few pages earlier, but I'm still not sure how much it was just for the SFD.

Or should I just run coax from the Eitr and be happy that I'm getting most out of the SFD despite not going the AES/ST OP route?

Or, should I just pass on the SFD altogether, if I'm not listening to HDCD, and shoot for other DACs for all the money - money spent in just trying to get music from my Mac to the SFD?

 

That completely answers everything, thanks!
You won't know how long I spent reading here.

 

Another option would be to go the route that I went and buy a Lynx card and use a breakout cable to hook up to the AES input. If your Mac is a desktop with PCIe slots, this is a great option. I got my Lynx E22 for $450 including breakout cables. Sound-wise I think the general consensus here has been that a Lynx card to AES is slightly better than Eitr, but I haven't heard Eitr so I can't really quantify that.

If you have a laptop then some here have used an external PCIe chassis and connected via Thunderbolt, which if you aren't technical, I wouldn't recommend.

 

I do have an iMac so perhaps I'm out of luck going the Lynx and external PCIe option?
But, I take it that AES is the way to go if possible.

 

Honestly, I have no clue if AES is better than the other interfaces in Sonic Frontier's DACs. You may have to have incredibly good ears to hear the difference between Lynx and Eitr. Perhaps @Xecuter has a more definitive opinion.

If your iMac has thunderbolt ports then you could go that route. If you want to jump down the rabbit hole, start here: http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/lynx-pcie-aes-interfaces-aes16-and-e22.2762/

 

I have a schiit eitr coming in, will compare it to aes16e, aries and cd-transport for you guys shortly.

 

I have sfd-2 mkii, not sure which sfd you are looking to buy, but the sfd-2 mkii has optical, st optical, coax, bnc, and aes input. My transports are rednet d16, marantz cd6005, and arcam diva cd73.

I prefer to use aes input since I don't have transport with st optical output. You can do this by using bnc coax spdif cable and spdif to aes transformer such as the one Marvey mentioned above or Neutrik NADITBNC-MX.

Cheapest good transport option for this dac is using cd transport + transformer to aes input.

 

Yes, I should have clarified. I am talking about the SFD-1. Maybe SFD-2 has AES by default on all units. But I noticed some units for the SFD-1 missing AES and having TOSLINK instead, hence my initial confusion. Even the manual for the SFD-1 that I found online doesn't have AES as an option.

Also, thanks for the advice. I've got much to learn about this DAC. Guess it's part of owning something vintage.

Btw, just to clarify, that Neutrik model seems to convert AES (110ohm) to BNC (75ohm). Unless it is bidirectional, shouldn't I get the NADITBNC-MX instead?

 

You are right should be NADITBNC-MX (corrected my post above).

Not familiar with sfd-1, but sfd-1 might have two versions as well: sfd-1 and sfd-1 mkii

 

DAC and transport thoughts, featuring: ps audio DS, sfd-1, forsell, aries LE, eitr, lynx aes 16e and sft-1.

So I spent the weekend doing a little bit of transport and dac rolling.
I was fortunate enough to borrow a ps audio direct stream with current firmware to compare to sfd-1 mkii and forsell air reference dac as well as help me evaluate some different interfaces/transports.
It's a shame the Yggdrasil A2 I have on order has not come in because it would have been great to compare the ps audio to the Yggdrasil A2.

I used the sft-1 SE+ CD transport, lynx aes16e, Auralic Aries LE and Schiit eitr (spdif). I did not use the ps audio network bridge.

Some of the songs used for evaluation:
Rob Dougan: Frescobaldi's Toccata (Orchestral Session)
Nothing But Thieves: Lover, Please Stay
The Temper Trap: Sweet Disposition
Sohn: Tremors
Agnes Obel: Curse
Sumbmotion Orchestra: Red Dress
Maria Tambien: Khruangbian - I don't know where this came from but this album is super chill
RATM: Take the Power Back


I used a mixture of speakers and headphones for this evaluation.

Lynx aes16e:
For me the Lynx aes16e was the worst of the bunch, the onboard clock is not sufficient for either the sfd-1 or forsell as I stated in this thread earlier. I have spent hours tinkering with the buffering and clocking on this device and have given up. With the ps audio the Lynx is much better as the ps audio ignores the lynx clock. I still found the lynx to have an uneven treble response as well as introduced some digitus. I've put the lynx up for sale.

Eitr:
It was fun plugging the aries in via AES the eitr in with spdif linking the two zones on jriver and then ABing with the song syncd between the interfaces.
My conclusion: the eitr is great, it's cheap, it's easy, it has no detectable digitus it's clean and neutral. I could not differentiate between the two whenever I tried blind with any of the dacs.

Aries LE:
I wrote a little bit about this unit on another thread:
http://www.superbestaudiofriends.or...etting-into-this-area.3864/page-4#post-197776
I guess the most interesting comparison is the Aries vs the eitr. Audio quality wise the aries is just as good as the eitr, I don't believe it introduces any colouration. The price difference is really the wireless steaming stuff, dlna, uPnP, spotify, tidal etc stuff, the device is really capable as a headless media pc built for audio with non shitty, jittery clocking. You will need a lightning fast wireless network, router and NAS to take full advantage of this device.

sft-1 se+ :
How does a 20 year old CD transport stack up against eitr/aries?
This transport has been my reference for a long time, whilst I struggled with the lynx I kept going back to the sft and wondering how the lynx could sound so much worse. The sft-1 is awesome, they are highly sort after in the asian market as it is regarded as very neutral and does not impart itself in anyway.
I was surprised to see folks using the sft-1 in stores in Singapore and Japan.
I will mention that when I first got it was really hard and bright sounding, we found out the main microchip was failing, so I had to buy another broken sft-1 to fix my original. After this it has worked flawlessly. It's nervosa free, clean and neutral and it is the transport I compare all other sources to (even though it is locked to 16bit 44.1khz).

Dac review:

Ps Audio DS
I guess I have to write a little bit about my thoughts on the ps audio DS dac with the latest firmware (Red Cloud)
It's a really solid dac. very feature heavy with a wonderful and functional gui and remote, it's clean, it's resolving, it isn't harsh, it has a great stage and imaging that is realistic and believable. However i feel that it can be a bit too polite, the leading edge of transients is not super sharp and sudden, which is probably accurate but I really like a dac that has that immediacy. The Direct stream has nailed the stage and imaging but doesn't really wow you or draw you in like some dacs can. I don't think this is the dac I'm looking for at this point.

Forsell:
I still haven't said much about the forsell air reference DA I picked up at the start of the year. Note this is not the pro audio brand Forssell technologies.
It really is a sublime sounding DAC and I think it bests the sfd-1 in most regards. The forsell has slightly more bite in the treble and is less smeared and muddy in the treble than the sfd-1. Staging and imaging is excellent, probably not on par with ps audio but very good considering I think the ps audio may be exaggerating this to make it seem more right.
Forsell and sfd-1 have similar tonality, except the treble which is a bit more forward and incisive on the forsell. Where as the sfd-1 is a bit more laid back. I think all three dacs are a hair on the polite side but none of them are overtly soft. The sfd-1 definitely still wows you with that spooky out of nowhere transient that makes emerging instruments and sudden noises make you turn your head - this is also probably a exaggerated feature which I'm really addicted to.


Quick summary

The DS beats out the old dacs for stage, imaging and resolution. Not by a chasm, but it is noticeable. The sfd-1 is definitely the warmest, followed by DS which is not all that incisive and a hair polite, the forsell is slightly more incisive as well as more forward than both the DS and sfd, it's really not that far behind the DS for stage and imaging.
The sfd-1 and forsell both best the ps audio as far as tonality goes (this is ultra subjective), I just feel like the DS is a bit polite, sometimes even dull, especially with brutal pieces like RATM's Take the Power Back it's just a little bit lacking. We are not talking NOS dac smoothing, but it is noticeable.

Conclusion:
The ps audio is undoubtedly a top shelf dac, it resolves superbly, it's clean, the clocking system works and the network bridge resolves most nervosa. The DAC is sophisticated yet still very easy to use.
It is so close to perfect really. However, for me there is a slight lacking in the leading edge that might be a colouration added by some other dac manufacturers, the select ii and rockna also have this same urgency and suddenness that is really important to natural or analogue sounding music IMO.
I could very happily live with the ps audio DS, music is beautiful, clean and flows with ease, however I will continue my hunt.


Bonus:
The gentlemen who lent me his ps audio DS let me have a listen to one of the best dialed in systems I've ever heard.
Antipodes music server > accuphase dc-37 dac > coincident RC line stage pre amp > accuphase A 46 amp and some vintage JBL c60 with all original drivers. Room is heavily treated with absorbers, a few tactical bass traps, relying on the curtains for diffusion.
This was an incredibly dynamic system, these 40 year old speakers would embarrass many six figure systems I've spent time with.

 

I've had the SFD-1 MK2 for a couple of days and am absolutely loving what I hear. So much so that I'm already on the lookout for the SFD-2 MK2 or SFD-2 MK3.

I've only read passing comments about how the SFD-2 compares. I know you should run it balanced, which in my case would require a Jensen PC-2XR. Apart from this, can anyone expand?

I'm also particularly interested to hear how the MK3 would compare. Very little about the MK3 out there.

 

Well, I can give you an idea of the sound of the SFD-2 MK2, but I can't compare to anything in the same class (Gungnir Multibit, Yggdrasil, Pavane, or even SFD-1) as I've never heard them. I can tell you that while some of those DACs may be technically better, I've never felt a serious need to buy another DAC since I bought mine. Maybe as I go to meets an such in the future I may change my mind, but I'm seriously loving this DAC and I may never sell it.

The SFD-2 MK2 has very good, clean bass, as it should, since it has something like twice the power section of the SFD-1. Going from Bifrost Multibit to SFD-2, the difference in clarity and resolution was notable. It also has a big soundstage. (The soundstage with SFD-2 > Aficionado > HD800 is crazy.) There is a slight treble roll off, but I'd say it's only slightly warmer than neutral. From what I've heard about the SFD-1, I'd say that SFD-2 isn't as warm. However, my favorite characteristic, and one it may share with the SFD-1 is a lack of digitus. The Ultra Analog chips live up to their name.

This is what @Torq had to say about the SFD-2 shortly after I bought it. Even though he heard it ages ago, I'd still trust his opinion more than mine:

Maybe there are more members out there (@Mr.Sneis @songmic ) that have heard this DAC and can compare it to other DACs both new and old. I'd certainly be interested to hear impressions.

 

I can't comment on Sonics of sfd2 vs sfd1 as my memory is now too vague but I did want to make light of a few minor design/operation differences between them that I don't see discussed.

The sfd2 has better shielding between the sections of the design to help with emi, I don't think the sfd1 has any shielding at all and may be more sensitive to physical placement.

The sfd2 if I recall lit the tubes and was on as soon as it got power, there was a standby switch but no real on off switch. The sfd1 actually does have an off switch. So unless you want the sfd2 tubes on all the time you would have to resort to another method of power cycling.

Both DACs are excellent of course. I'm curious why there's so few mk3's myself, pcm1704 is also great in my experience.

 

Yes, the tubes are lit all the time, although if I put my hand above the tubes when it's in standby, I can't feel much heat. The power section puts off the same amount of heat both when on and in standby. Personally, I just leave it on, as I'm not sure how long it would need to warm up if it were completely off. I may have to re-evaluate if the tubes die on me in a short amount of time, but I do have 3 backup sets (Amperex Orange Globe and Bugles Boys), so I'm good for now. Correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't have much knowledge about how tubes work, but if less heater current is going to the tube when in standby, will the tubes last longer than if they were fully lit 24/7?

 

The standby is really there to slow the heating and cooling of the tubes to increase life time. You are supposed to put it in standby for 2-3 minutes then turn it on. Same as when turning it off - Standby for a few minutes then turn it off.

Having it on standby all the time will still shorten tube life time (heater is on). The tubes used can have a life time of up to 10k hours.

I would not leave the dac on 24/7. The dac reaches stable operating temps within a minutes of being fired up cold. Running it 24/7 is just going to cost you more in tubes and maintenance.

 

Thanks! That's good to know. It's a little confusing, since there is no on/off switch. I'll unplug it after it's been in standby for a bit to turn it off and do the opposite when turning it on.