superlowfi's Deep Thoughts on SBAF; and BBQ

Discussion in 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' started by superlowfi, Jun 19, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. superlowfi

    superlowfi New

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2017
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Canada
    Hi all, new the forums and the community. I used to be a registered head-fi member but ever since the update my account stopped working.

    I have been following the drama for a little bit now and I find it mostly entertaining. I think this community and others will stand to gain a bunch of members and eye balls from the drama, so I wouldn't necessarily call it all bad, even if some individuals are understandably offended at some of the things that have happened.

    That said, one theme that repeats itself on head-fi, and here, and elsewhere, is that people want to call the Z1R a "garbage headphone". I can understand the measurements, and understand they might have an emphasized frequency at certain points,compared to other headphones, but is that really enough to call the Z1R "garbage"? I can also understand that some people don't like the sound signature, and some people are put off by the high price. But again, is not liking the sound signature enough to call a headphone "garbage"?

    If some people like the headphone, and feel it is a fair price to pay for the unique sound signature, couldn't it be said that for that individual, the price is fair, and the headphone is good? Isn't Sony ultimately offering a unique product to the marketplace?

    I just seem to continually run into a bit of contradiction in terms. People generally recognize the infancy at which headphone measurements are currently done, and the limited conclusive power that they currently entail, yet at the same time seemingly to want to make grand sweeping conclusions concerning whether a headphone is "garbage" or "good value"? Who really gets to define such things when measurements themselves are admittedly so limited in our conclusions?
     
  2. frenchbat

    frenchbat Almost "Made"

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,369
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Don't confuse "bad bargain" which seems to be the case here, with "garbage headphones"
     
  3. DigMe

    DigMe Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2016
    Likes Received:
    8,802
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Tejas
    I didn't see where they were called "garbage" in this thread. That would be up to each person to make a judgement on a given headphone. All are free to share their informed opinions. The things said about SBAF at HF are so blinded by their own bias that they cannot see the truth. What's not really tolerated here is parroting and BS. Yes, certain people's opinions carry more weight because of proven experience but that's a much better reason for one's opinion to carry weight vs number of posts or moderator power.
     
  4. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,771
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    You get it. We like to ruffle feathers and push buttons. Unorthodox for sure, especially in the more genteel circles of audiophilia.

    People love extremes. It's my understanding that the view of the MDR-Z1R here is more nuanced and mixed. I could be wrong (maybe someone could tabulate impressions on a 1-5 scale and report back). There is also a tendency here to for regulars to go to an extreme as a reaction against noobs who make fantastical claims that the Z1R is the new R10.

    I would advise that you read the entirety of the MDR-Z1R measurement thread. Here are some of my comments below. "Beautiful" is hardly "garbage". Always, always read the fine print here.

    There are some peaks in the treble, but looking at the CSD, the decay is immediate and hits the floor by 0.5ms with the exception of the spot at 10kHz. I definitely heard this. It's very spotlit though. I didn't hear it on Alicia Keys Unplugged, but it was very obvious with Peter Gabriel So (with the way it was mastered). A very distinct tizz, but not painful to me ears, which is expected with ringing around 10-12kHz. The Elear has a similar sounding tizz. Still, there might be lower treble fuckery that I did not notice because of the massive amount of bass masking or "balancing" it.

    Despite the weirdness, I do like the headphone, particularly when the bass is toned down a bit with EQ. There is a "beautiful" sound of sorts, but I wonder if much of this is because of the cups and what appears to be purposeful delicate and understated reverb effect. The CSD actually has a fairly clean floor for a closed headphone.

    So I guess I liked the Z1R more than Tyll did. Oh noes!
    Doesn't invalidate Tyll's impressions or his measurements; and it has nothing to do with outlier samples.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  5. superlowfi

    superlowfi New

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2017
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Canada
    Who decides what is a "bad bargain" though? I mean, isn't every headphone you don't like a "bad bargain", and every headphone you do like a "good deal" as long as you personally think it is a fair price?

    I don't mean to overstep by saying that people here called the Z1R a garbage headphone, only to say, if we can agree that the Z1R offers a unique sound signature (which seems to be fairly accepted, even if the signature itself tends to be polarizing), why can't we also admit that those who bought it and are happy with it got a "good deal'?

    There just seems to be this contradiction, where that objective measurements are valuable as one aspect of evaluating headphones, it is agreed that subjective preferences still play a strong role in headphone decisions, but people still want to toss around the terms "bad headphone", "bad deal", "good deal", as if these things are all objectively agreed upon?

    I think we can all agree. If someone buys a headphone they don't like, it was a bad deal for that person. If someone feels they overpaid for a headphone, that headphone is by definition overpriced. I think if a person can tell they won't like a sound signature from the objective measurements, those objective measurements have been highly useful.

    There seems to be an extra step taken in some of these conclusions though, such that there is a desire to state that "this headphone is a bad deal for all people". Am I alone in getting that sense from some of the discussion?
     
  6. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,771
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    I'll make it easy and say that I do. The truth is it's done with how the majority of established members feel about something. We are a close-knit community, far more than it would appear to outsiders. I know way too much about the trials and tribulations of the members here. Money problems. Marriage problems. Health problems. Girl problems. Death. Life is hard.

    Also some background: we don't feel it's a disservice discouraging someone from buying something. The worse thing that happens is someone ends up buying something later than earlier. People who ask me about gear know that I often recommend sticking with what they have, listening to music instead of gear, and NOT "upgrading". I'll also advise someone to get rid of something which I know is a piece-of-shit. I'm notorious for this. Just ask @brencho.

    No. Because this hobby is bad enough in how it plays with audiophile's hopes and fears. I've seen people destroy themselves over this hobby. 90% of shit out there is a bad deal if you ask me.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  7. Dino

    Dino Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2016
    Likes Received:
    3,332
    Trophy Points:
    113
    @superlowfi - Search this site for the word "garbage". The only hits that are related to the ZR1 are your post and posts that followed yours in this thread.
     
  8. superlowfi

    superlowfi New

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2017
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Canada
    Marvey, I have to say, I have limited experience reading your reviews, but you tend to have the best sense of humor about the language used in the reviews. Your style is genuinely irreverent, yet you are still able to get the listening impressions from the objective side across to the subjective side quite well.

    Out of all the reviewers I am familiar with, you seem to take yourself the least seriously (i mean that as a compliment), and I think it translates very well into an "this is my honest evaluation of the these headphones" type of way, which builds trust with the reader.

    I hope I don't offend, but one aspect of Tyll's reviews is that he seems to presuppose an ideal, and takes that extra step sometimes to wanting to make objective assumptions about the quality of the headphones based on that ideal.

    Again, I know I am new here and not trying to offend anyone, just making some unsolicited "who is reviewing the reviewers?" type comments.
     
  9. superlowfi

    superlowfi New

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2017
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Canada
    Dino, I would ask that you not get too caught up in the specific words I am using and try to understand the spirit of my post. I mean "garbage", "bad bargain", "good bargain" and so on to mean roughly the same thing.
     
  10. Dino

    Dino Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2016
    Likes Received:
    3,332
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I wouldn't have, but you used the word 4 times in one post and again in another.
     
  11. a44100Hz

    a44100Hz Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    US East
    This site likes maximizing performance / price ratios. The Z1R is just a low ratio unit compared to other products. Doesn't mean it's not fun to listen to (I haven't heard it). But why buy it if you can get better for less? That's why some people are harsh.
     
  12. DigMe

    DigMe Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2016
    Likes Received:
    8,802
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Tejas
    And in quotation marks which made me immediately curious as to who here you were quoting.
     
  13. Xen

    Xen Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2015
    Likes Received:
    207
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Ug... cannot resist...

    Please, "garbage" is not even close to equatable or even has much similarity to "bad bargain" except for both being on the negative side of the neutral line. You make yourself stumble out of the block using such a loaded word like "garbage" when you are trying to convey such a nuanced idea such as "value is in the eye of the beholder". Of course, Beholders are nasty creatures that I wonder which oil I need to coat my silver sword with to dispatch them.

    In regards to the headphone, no idea since I have never heard it. I probably never will because I am not interested in "warm" or "dark" sound.

    In regards to the actual issue of misinformation, attacking the credibility of Tyll and basically attempting to invalidate all of the work he has put in at Inner Fidelity is such a asswipe move.
     
  14. superlowfi

    superlowfi New

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2017
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Canada
    Again, who really defines what this really means? I can somewhat understand if Marvey is saying that most of the people in this community have broadly the same preferences. But again, if you agree that the Z1R has a unique sonic profile, and some people enjoy that profile, doesn't that fundamentally imply for those people the performance of the Z1R is quite high, and perhaps worth the price?
     
  15. GTABeancounter

    GTABeancounter Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    321
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Ontario Canada
    Yes... context matters! And MSRP plays a big part of shaping context here with respect to how products are perceived.
     
  16. frenchbat

    frenchbat Almost "Made"

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,369
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Superlofi, as it's been outlined already, a few things are expected from a 2k$+ unit which are not from a 500$ or less unit.

    Furthermore, when such unit does get objective results that are worse than older and cheaper units, the probability of the random user getting to the conclusion that it's a " good deal " is fairly low. But not impossible, I'll gladly concede it.

    In this particular case, not having heard the Sony and thus not giving an opinion on it, the fostex 900 seems like a better bargain. Unless that 10k peak is absolutely necessary ofc (this is tongue-in-cheek).

    EDIT : in no way is this community, a unified taste community. There are clearly marked different preferences across the people here.
     
  17. superlowfi

    superlowfi New

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2017
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Canada
    I suppose I may be guilty in my reading this forum a little too much before concocting a reply, that some of the "ruffle feathers and stir the pot" ethos may have rubbed off on me.

    That said, I hope my provocative choice of words in "garbage" did not too much offend the unorthodox decidedly un-genteel members of this community. (Tongue firmly in cheek).

    That said, I cannot agree more than the behavior and response of Jude is unacceptable. Partially that is why I have stumbled upon this community in the first place, and I suspect you folks will have more stumbling in out of the cold following behind me.
     
  18. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    14,129
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    India
    Stir the pot, ruffle the feathers! But to join a thread like this with a yes-but-maybe-everything's-fine and it-depends-on-your-definition-of-fine, nine or ten pages in, when the headphone itself and how it sounds is almost a side issue, is really not ruffling or stirring to good effect. I don't think that is an SBAF thing: I think it is a thing that is likely to get some harsh reactions on many forums. And actually the reactions you got here are not very harsh.

    Certainly, it is shame that this thread even has to exist. But it does, and it has so much to offer on so many levels. Commentary on Jude's bad behaviour is just one of them. I wonder if you really read it? Please do! And please don't ask me to define bad behaviour.
     
  19. Ringingears

    Ringingears Honorary BFF

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,659
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Northern Californium Valley
    Don't worry. Most of us aren't offended easily. Some of us easily offend others however. |\/|
     
  20. a44100Hz

    a44100Hz Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    US East
    Who defines what a good deal is? The community as a whole. If you wanna spend more money, then by all means. But anyone acting like there's zero room for common sense performance ratios in this hobby are probably just trying to justify their own purchases (or their sales).
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page