superlowfi's Deep Thoughts on SBAF; and BBQ

Discussion in 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' started by superlowfi, Jun 19, 2017.

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  1. superlowfi

    superlowfi New

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    Let me preface by saying I realize I am way out of the what the "norm" is in this community, and I am speaking as a total outsider, so I fully understand that.

    That said, I have to say that your kind of thinking bugs me a lot too. You want to say that someone who buys a Z1R is not being discerning. Based on what? If they prefer the sound signature of the Z1R to everything else, and know what they want, and price is not an issue, how is that not discerning?

    The assumption that just because a person buys a headphone that this community doesn't approve of, they are wasting their money in some frivolous "fool and his money" situation is more than a little pretentious. It is assuming a bunch of things that you really can't assume, such as, objective measurements alone are enough to be able to fully assess and stack rank the ultimate performance of headphones.

    All that said, I can certainly understand and appreciate the focus of this community. A self-described bunch of curmudgeons aiming to stir the pot on the frontiers of measurements, boldly striking back at corporate greed with a grassroots effort to educate the customers. All that is great. And at the end of the day, it is much better to be pretentious with money in your pocket than unpretentious and broke.

    I don't expect to contribute to this community to necessarily change anyone's minds about their approach above, but I hope I can squeeze in a few words here and there which may not exactly track with the overall assumptions of the community at large.
     
  2. superlowfi

    superlowfi New

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    Absolutely agree. It makes total sense for a reviewer to have a "perfectly average listener" model in their mind, and make broad assumptions about what a "perfectly average listener" would enjoy in terms of a sound signature. In fact, if I understand the research correctly, that is broadly what the Harman target curve aimed to develop - an ideal frequency response based on listener preferences.

    Given that is true, is seems to follow that there would be tastes that fall outside the "perfectly average listener" model, and to recognize that some headphones might appeal to these demographics. Certain things about these demographics might be true, including the fact they are less numerous among the general population, companies catering to their tastes might require esoteric research and product development, and so on. Products targeting these individuals might be naturally more expensive.

    I can concede that concluding that the Z1R is a bad bargain for a perfectly average listener who is expecting a certain frequency response is a totally fair statement, but it should also leave the door open to those individuals who might appreciate the unique sonic characteristics of such a headphone. And I think alluding to those individuals in that demographic as "not discerning buyers" is taking things a step to far. In my opinion, of course.

    It seems the best measure of these things would really be in the satisfaction rate of the owners. If owners of the Z1R are generally happy, and don't feel they have been ripped off, it is hard to say that the Z1R are anything other than a success for Sony. Unique sonic characteristics or not.
     
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I get where you are coming from, but think of it this way: at some point, we need to draw a line in the sand between what is good or what is bad. We don't give participation awards. Some people, in fact, many people in this day and age, won't like this. If you had been around during the Changstar days, that line was even tougher. A great piece of gear was only given the illustrious label of "Not Shit".

    Understandable sentiment, but I would argue that this feeling is more of projection of the reader, and not what we actually do. One of the reasons I cast a deciding vote in acquiring this headphone for our loaner program is because @CEE TEE told me that @Will loved them, and that they had beautiful sound. I agreed with this assessment, although I also noted the MDR-Z1R's faults (as readers here would expect me to do).

    I know @Will. It's not like after I heard the Z1R, thought they were good, but overpriced, I immediated texted @Will to tell him he was an idiotic dumbass who lacked any discernment. He loves bass. Cool beans.

    Ultimately, it's about having good ears and being real. It's not that hard to acknowledge that the MDR-Z1R have a fuckton of bass, recessed mids, and a little zing (or too much zing in Tyll's case) while still loving the headphone. It's not that hard to acknowledge that the MDR-Z1R are really f'ing stupidly absurdly expensive, while resigning oneself to I don't give a f**k, I gotta have it.

    It's not black -or- white. Or good -or- bad. It's all that shit mixed together. That said, there is gear out there that is pure shit, but let's not go there right now.

    That's not the audience that we cater to. We are perfectly willing to send people to Head-Fi and have done so on several occasions. Call it elitism. Call it groupthink. We love being called those things. Does not mean that I don't understand the "perfectly average listener", hell no. I talk with the Massdrop guys a lot on their audiophile product offerings and how the "average listener" might receive them.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  4. superlowfi

    superlowfi New

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    I understand that from a reviewer's perspective, whose goal is to educate consumers on the merits and realities of the products in question. But I think this line of thinking is fundamentally presuming that the marketplace of headphones exists in a "horse race" style paradigm, where some horses are winners and some are losers. Of course as a reviewer you don't want to give a participation award to that three legged donkey in the corner, he did not show up to compete. (You can take this to refer to the Z1R if it pleases you, I get the sense it would please many members of the forum).

    That paradigm, while it makes sense to assume from a reviewer perspective and will resonate with consumers, IMO, is an imperfect representation of what the marketplace of headphones really represents. IMO, headphones as a marketplace are like a bakery that bakes cakes. There are the standard offerings which the bakery knows everyone will love, including apple pie and chocolate layer cake. But maybe once in a while they experiment with a cake, using exotic ingredients, such as saffron, caviar, and Italian truffle. Maybe some, or even most cake eaters would think such a cake tastes a bit funky. But perhaps there are some connoisseurs (I have a feeling that one will rub some the wrong way) - or individuals with esoteric tastes (warmer?, maybe, "bad" taste) - that actually enjoy them.

    In such a paradigm, the whole concept of "participation awards" is a bit nonsensical, as is the concept of some cakes winning some kind of proverbial horse race. It only makes sense to broadly talk about cakes with the most appeal, and cakes which might have less appeal. (To be clear, I'm not talking about cake making competitions which certainly exist, but rather the absurdity of a bakery presenting a chocolate cake as superior to a vanilla cake in a "horse race" kind of paradigm, outside of those cases where a chocolate cake might be a baker's specialty - regardless, I am rambling, and I think you get my point).

    Regarding "perfectly average listener" preferences, I think you may have misunderstood me. I don't necessary mean average in the traditional sense (as in, the average customer might enjoy Beats), but you do make assumptions regarding the listener preferences of your audience, yes, you could say in an "elitist" or "group-think" sort of way, although I wouldn't jump to such derogatory terms. Averaged across your audience, there is an expectation for certain results, and deviations from those results means a headphone exists outside some approved tier of performance. "Perfectly average" in this case represents a certain cross section of consumers that constitute your audience, and if you want to refer to them as "elitist", I would say, "if the shoe fits".

    In the case of your mini review here, I think it's totally fair, and I think it perfectly makes sense given the "perfectly average" (your "elitist" audience) model in the "headphones as a horse race" paradigm. Given someone who is looking for exactly that sound signature, and given that other options have audible differences in their sound signatures (such as the TH 900), I think it is perfectly understandable how a discerning listener who knows exactly what they are getting can purchase the Z1R, and not necessarily fall into the "f**k, I gotta have it, even if they are absurdly expensive" caricature you have painted here.
     
  5. superlowfi

    superlowfi New

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    "Unique sound" is pretty fundamental isn't it? Isn't that what fundamentally separates all audio products? If all headphones sounded like the HD 800, there would be no advantage to spending more on one.

    You don't have to presume that the Z1R is not objectively superior It is categorically not objectively superior. It is unique, with pretty clear deviations from standard headphone audio reproduction paradigms which make it unique.

    Regarding people spending such and such to get a sound that is "just so", isn't that at the heart of all audio product purchases? You have a sound preference, and a budget. You get as close as you can with what you have.
     
  6. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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  7. Mshenay

    Mshenay Barred from loaner program. DON'T SEND ME GEAR.

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  8. GettingBuckets

    GettingBuckets Almost "Made"

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  9. Mshenay

    Mshenay Barred from loaner program. DON'T SEND ME GEAR.

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    YEA Barbecue!!! Good man, there's the word I was looking for... so who wants to start it?
     
  10. jexby

    jexby Posole Prince

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    whomever does start it, first post better be bbq pork + vinegar based sauce recipes by legit "bruthas" from the carolinas/tennessee/etc.
    else i aint watching that thread one bit. yah, you heard me kansas city beef faux-bbq. :D
     
  11. Ringingears

    Ringingears Honorary BFF

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    Seems we are trying to explain who we are and how we approach this hobby/addiction. Given the flaws in communication with the written word, it is not surprising that we are finding it difficult to do. @superlowfi , I am not sure how long you have been lurcking here, but I might suggest you take some time to hangout, read what folks have to say on various topics, and if you can at some point come to a meet. We are a diverse group of people. If you met us in person you would see we don't suffer from group think. Over time we have come to know what each of us likes and don't. We also have found certain overlap in preferences. I think we also know when something isn't worth the asking price, love the sound signature or not. I am not speaking for everyone here. For me I am looking for great sound, but I also have been into headphones since 1972, and the price point for too much gear is simply insane. Because of the meets I have attended, I have found great products at reasonable prices. I have also heard some gear that really is closer to mid-fi sound and build quality, but has a multi-thousand dollar price tag. Too many manufacturers right now are just taking advantage of the current interest in headphone audio to make a quick buck. These can be both large and boutique companies. We are trying among other things to call these folks out on their practices when we see it. We don't like the path much of the industry is taking, and call B.S. when we see it. Hope to see you at a meet sometime.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  12. superlowfi

    superlowfi New

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    I think the cake analogy works along another dimension, in that no rational human being in their right mind who isn't on a diet of exotic unpronounceable hallucinogenic drugs would walk into a cake shop expecting to buy a foie gras iced, saffron cake topped with caviar. But if a particularly brave individual did stumble in to an experimental cake shop and saw that was on the menu and had the disposable income to give it a try, they might try it and like it.

    By the same token, I don't think anyone out there was really seriously actually desperately searching for a rocky mountain shaped frequency response with M1 Abrams build quality. But I do think Sony developed something unique, some people took a chance on trying it, and they discovered that they actually quite enjoyed it. Discerning listeners even.

    All that said, if the result of all this back and forth ends up being a barbecue thread, I will consider it a win. :p
     
  13. Ringingears

    Ringingears Honorary BFF

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    Can start a French cooking thread too? :D
     
  14. Case

    Case Anxious Head (Formerly Wilson)

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  15. Mshenay

    Mshenay Barred from loaner program. DON'T SEND ME GEAR.

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    right. Works for me!!

    Good news and bad news... I'm in the Carolina's but I'll have to work to get a good barbecue recipe for now I can only say Simply Southern here on 10th North in Myrtle has the best bbq ribs in town!
     
  16. sfoclt

    sfoclt Friend

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    If you're from the Carolina's, you should know that 'bbq' is a noun.
     
  17. Mshenay

    Mshenay Barred from loaner program. DON'T SEND ME GEAR.

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    sadly I was born an raised in South Carolina by some Yankees, just now discovering amazing bbq as an adult
     
  18. sfoclt

    sfoclt Friend

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    I'm a transplanted southerner. I've had King's BBQ (https://www.kingsbbq.com/oink-express/) Fed Ex'd out for dinner before. You should take advantage of being local to good bbq.

    Here's a good description: "In California, barbecue is considered a verb, or something that one would do. In North Carolina, the author's home state, barbecue is a noun, or something that one would eat. In California, and other places outside of the South, barbecue is a flavor, a smoke, or a sauce; barbecuing is something done on a spit or over open coals. Down South, barbecue is a thing, a finished product ready to be eaten: crisp bits of pork that have been slow roasted over an open fire, basted with sauce, and usually served with cole slaw and corn bread."
    https://digital.lib.ecu.edu/ncpi/view/10810
     
  19. superlowfi

    superlowfi New

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    The thing is, if we are evaluating the merits of audio gear, as compared to each other, different signatures are fundamental.

    Defining what the artist's (or is it sound engineer's?) intent can only be defined by that individual, ie. the sound engineer himself. And 10 times out of 10, that sound engineer will tell you the goal is to make the music sound good across a wide breadth of consumer equipment, including speakers. Again, the "perfectly average listener" model.

    The purpose of headphones is to maximize the enjoyment to the listener of music. That is a combination of sound artist/engineer intent, the varying degrees of accuracy required by the listener, the unique physiology that constitutes the way a listener can interpret sound from a headphone (head shape, ear hardness, actual hearing ability, ear canal shape, ear drum angle, and so on), and the personal preferences of said listener which may deviate from said expected accuracy (if at all, ie. if you like warmer headphones, you might not want to hear as the artist intended, and to maximize your enjoyment you actually seek a colored sound).

    Even if you only consider the accuracy part of the equation, and ignore that most people would say it is quite pointless to hear as the artist intended if you aren't enjoying yourself, there is no one who can currently define even what accuracy means in the context of the intersection of sound engineer intent and individual listener expectations/physiology in the context of a headphone.

    In that sense, headphones are very much like cakes, in that no one can say that vanilla is objectively better than chocolate for all people everywhere.

    It is a creator of an alternate sound signature in the context of headphone sound signatures which target common frequency response which are enjoyed by a wide variety of listeners and are as safe to market and manufacture as warm apple pie. I don't think Sony explicitly sought to develop something that was inaccurate and distorted, I believe they sought only to provide a unique sound signature in the market that could not readily be found elsewhere. Again, things like the Harman curve were researched and developed to target "listener preferences". These things are not a panacea.

    To illustrate my point further, take the HD 800. Many consider this the best headphone, and as such when released had a unique sound signature (it logically follows that if one headphone is better than another, it has a different sound). Does this headphone invalidate the efforts of all previous sound engineers in their target sound? If you admit it is better than other headphones, and it has a unique sound signature, you also must admit that no audio engineer could have possibly intended their music to be reproduced with such a unique sound in the context of headphones.

    In reality, the "perfectly average listener" model dominates assumptions about headphones, accuracy, and sound. Headphones that exist outside of standard models are not necessarily wrong, but admitedly are also probably not going to be well received by the majority of people.
     
  20. superlowfi

    superlowfi New

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    Thanks for the welcome Wilson!
     
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