The HD800 & HD800S thread

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by sorrodje, Oct 11, 2015.

  1. Case

    Case Anxious Head (Formerly Wilson)

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    @ultrabike, I'm a feeling a good ole thread move...

     
  2. GanGreinke

    GanGreinke Friend

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    With that type of mentality, you're just going to be wanting to buy amp after amp, only this time it will be high end expensive amps rather than "mid tier" stuff. Wanting to buy something because it is high end is an audiophile trap that people here are trying to help you avoid because they went through the exact same thing. Your scale of what is considered high end will just keep on shifting, and you'll just keep "upgrading" to another amp just because it is "considered" better based on reviews and hype rather than because it suits you better. We may not know you personally, but you've said enough to show that you're going about this in a way that you'll never be satisfied.

    If, with all of that said and with what everyone else has already told you, you still feel like you need to buy a "high end" amplifier, then you might as well put the names of the expensive amps on pieces of paper and draw one out of a hat. You'll have the same likelihood of finding the "perfect" amp as you would trying to buy one based on what you read.
     
  3. thegunner100

    thegunner100 Hentai Master Chief

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    Just wanted to quote this for reference ;)
     
  4. thegunner100

    thegunner100 Hentai Master Chief

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    FWIW I remember when the Vali 1 was first announced by Schiit, Marv and co. gave it insane praise, which was very uncommon during the Changstar days (and even now to an extent). It was touted as being a sub $1000 amp that you can use to tell the difference between dacs. How many sub $1000 amps could you claim to do the same at the end of 2013? Most of you probably weren't around during that time, but you can probably find the Vali thread on the CS archives. Anyways, I waited eagerly for the Schiit signal to be put up and placed my order once it was available. This $119 amp showed me what the HD800s were capable of, and would have easily won the golden schlong award if it existed then. Still, I ended up selling the HD800 and Vali 1 because it wasn't as satisfying as a modest hd600/650 setup.

    If you had asked me 3 years ago if $300-400 could get you a decent HD800 setup, I would have said no. Schiit has come a long way with their amp and dac lineup to make it possible to get a HD800 setup for cheap. Gear or knowledge that we have now but didn't have in 2013:

    Gen 2 Schiit amps - Significant upgrades over their Gen 1 offerings. Vali 2 and Valhalla 2 are easy recommendations for beginner HD800 setups.
    Multibit for cheap - Modi Multibit is arguably better than the DS Gungnir in many ways at about 1/4th the price.
    Mods - Anax 2.0 didn't do enough to tame the treble peak. SDR tames the treble peak more effectively while not affecting the other frequencies. The SBAF absorber reduces the soundstage diffusion and brings the midrange to be more in-line with the treble.

    Anyways, you've already gotten advice from tons of people but it's your choice if you want to follow it or not. I think we've been more than accommodating to a newcomer who started off by asking useless A vs B questions.

    Edit: You will waste more money buying an expensive high end amp that you might not end up liking versus buying/selling the Modi Multibit/Vali 2 when you do find an amp that you like. Also, patience will eventually lead to Gen 3 Schiit amps.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
  5. Cradon

    Cradon Acquaintance

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    Ouch... that hurt. Seems for me the only way to be content is not listen to other gear.
     
  6. Illya

    Illya Acquaintance

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    Yeah I actually just ordered a Vali 2 and Modi Multibit since everyone here keeps recommending it for a starter setup, hell Marvey praised it like you said. I should be getting it tomorrow and hoping like someone said earlier will blow my socks off. So looking forward to getting rid of the Aune. Also the aune came somewhat broken, it has a channel imbalance and i've been living with that for about a year. Thanks again everyone I am super excited to get this setup, and see what the HD800's can really do!!!!
     
  7. Case

    Case Anxious Head (Formerly Wilson)

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    @Illya , congratulations! Remember to listen to the music, not the equipment.
     
  8. Illya

    Illya Acquaintance

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    Thanks!!!! I'm so stoked right now! The only downside is that I work all day tomorrow and won't get home til 10 and it says to come around 3 to 8 so yeah im so bummed right now too. :/
     
  9. sorrodje

    sorrodje Carla Bruni's other lover - Friend

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    Congrats @Illya : I'm currently uising a Vali2 while I'm waiting my Stratus to be back from DNA and I confirm it's a great little amplifier :)
     
  10. Garns

    Garns Friend

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    G'day all,

    I am after some general HD800 modding advice. So far I have SDR installed (keeper) and am trying other things to bring the lower mids up a bit. @Serious sent me some SBAF mod material, but I found it to reduce microdynamics and liveness in the same way that I experienced the KISS mod. So I'm putting that aside for now, with the hope of cutting it down to use in combination with other mods later.

    I next tried the Anax cutout in 3mm sorbothane. Now this is more like it. Lower mids have been brought out noticeably without affecting other technicalities. Soundstage sounds more believable too. However there are two problems:
    - It has taken away the little midbass hump which I rather liked.
    - 1-2khz is shouty and very rough. Gets fatiguing very quickly.

    I'm hoping I could fix these by reducing the size of the sorbothane cutout, but I only get one chance to do this before I have to order more sorbothane. Can anyone with modding experience suggest where I should make the first cut?
     
  11. Riotvan

    Riotvan Snoofer in the Woofer

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    Maybe some EQ? :)
    @TwoEars made a great thread which unfortunately doesn't see much activity: http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/the-hd800-eq-ing-thread.1735/
    I found his settings with Equilibrium a great baseline to start from. Sbaf mod never worked for me personally due to comfort issues(itchy ears).
     
  12. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    Reducing the thickness of the sorbothane should lessen the FR impacts it has, as does making it smaller. I think you're looking for slightly less thickness and possibly less outer diameter.

    I think it's possible to fix the midrange with just the SDR* and a precisely cut ring, along with the right pads. A year ago when my pads were completely new the midrange was slightly less shouty. As far as the bass goes I think the best you can do with a proper midrange tonality is flat. Treble maybe a tiny tiny bit sloped down without extra damping on the driver, or slightly more toned down without the weird driver cover in my avatar. If you want to keep the bass-hump then I think you'll inevitably compromise other areas. This is pretty much the most bass I could get while also getting a great midrange : Like this. It is what it is.

    FWIW I didn't find the SBAF mod to negatively affect technicalities. Mainly just less U-shaped. Maybe a tiny bit more clarity.
    I think it's pretty sibilant without the SBAF absorber and the upper midrange seems withdrawn.


    You know at one point I will make an HD800 modding measurement thread where I measure a couple common mods on both my special coupler and on my head. Expect this shortly after Anax 3.0.


    *(I feel the SD resonator lifts the upper mids more than it pushes down the treble peak, or atleast that's what my measurements show)
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
  13. Garns

    Garns Friend

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    Thanks, that's very helpful! I will try reducing the sorbothane outer diameter but keeping the current thickness first. If that doesn't work I will seek out some thinner sorbothane. I know 3mm is a bit thick, but I didn't find any thinner with the adhesive backing.

    My SBAF cutouts are definitely too large at the moment, so I really need to cut them down a bit before passing a final judgement. What I heard with the SBAF mod could also be amp-dependent. But in any case, the sorbothane ring seems right now to be getting me closer to what I want so I will fiddle further with that first.

    BTW I have a preference for keeping the dust covers on and maybe because of that don't seem to have any problems with sibilance. Really my only goal at this point is bringing out the mids.
     
  14. beemerphile

    beemerphile Friend

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    Might anyone have enough of the SBAF-approved non-slip rug pad material available as leftover? I would pay a fair price for enough to do a set of 800's.

    tia - Lee

    (Pls disregard. Problem solved. thx)

     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
  15. Rockin_Zombie

    Rockin_Zombie Facebook Friend

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    So I am completely floored by my HD800S. The soundstage just makes everything bigger, even the bass response is seriously good for rock/metal, that's what I listen to most.

    Unfortunately at work I need a closed set. I thought I will get away with open sets since mine is a private office but I just did a little test with a friend and even at low volume level it's loud, don't want others to hear all the growling of Amon Amarth.

    So I would like to get a closed set that best emulates the HD800S. I know it's physically not possible, but would like to get close. Any suggestions? Would be driving them through Chord Mojo/something similarly powered.
     
  16. Ice-man

    Ice-man Friend

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    Ether C or Ether C Flow comes to mind. As far as closed headphones that have a similar signature that I've owned personally, those would be it.
     
  17. beemerphile

    beemerphile Friend

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    I tried to do the cork mod and found out after painstakingly cutting out the circle part that my printer had re-scaled it so it did not work. On the Mulligan, I decided to simply remove the ring and fit the cork to it off the headphone. The ring is removed with a T6 Torx driver.

    [​IMG]

    Then I laid the ring onto a piece of adhesive cork shiny side down.

    [​IMG]

    Then cut the ID and OD with a sharp Xacto knife

    [​IMG]

    I punched the holes through with a T4 Torx driver and reinstalled.

    [​IMG]

    The trapezoid was done more conventionally as it is easy to pattern.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Joe Bloggs

    Joe Bloggs Acquaintance

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    Alright guys. This is SBAF, I honestly thought the level of replies would be much much higher than Head-Fi, but apparently you get some of the same ol' everywhere... Some replies were quite sensible but many were dissing Illya without being significantly different in audiophile mentality, really. With many of the replies I read I don't really see what drove them to "dislike" Illya other than a sense of reverse snobbishness. It didn't sound like they knew their way around audiophilia much better than Illya him/herself...

    With no sponsors in the way in this forum, let's just cut to the chase:

    1. There's nothing wrong with mid-tier headphones. If anything, my personal opinion is that many mid-tier classics (HD600/650, DT770/880/990, K701/702/712 etc.) were more sensibly designed / tuned than their eventual high-end replacements, the latter of which came out in the market at a time when the market simply started demanding to spend more and more on anything in the audio chain--for what, I hardly know; many of the current flagships suffer from what I call "over-the-hill" tuning, when the best that each major company had to offer was probably given out already (in one of the now so-called mid-tiers) and they had to invent something "better". Result: stuff that probably sounds worse, if you heard them with blinders on.

    2. There's nothing wrong with budget sources and amps either, except for the fact that they can't magically cure acoustic problems with your headphones, but then neither can sources and amps at any price. When I had the chance to test the HD800 (sans S), I tested it with the bargain basement FiiO E17K. It drove the HD800 to play the test tones I used at various frequencies to plenty loud enough without noticeable distortion, and if you know your audio theory, you'd know that that means no possibly noticeable distortion when playing music either (if anything, even quite noticeable distortion from test tones do not necessarily translate to noticeable distortion playing music, because of masking effect. Human ear is most sensitive to audible artifacts, when listening to pure tones.)

    3. There's a thousand ways to fool yourself into thinking you're getting better sound out of this or that amp or DAC, but much fewer ways to attain concrete improvements. I'll make a shortlist of all the significant sources of improvement:
    a) targeted EQ to remove artifacts closely associated with your own ears and how they couple with whatever headphones / earphones you chose. If you're hearing anemic bass and piercing highs with your headphones and your music, no change in DAC or amp is going to cure that. (Plenty of people THINK it can and does, though; they're just victims to a combination of i) expectation bias and ii) their poor ears being burnt into shape by their equipment while (i) did its work). EQ can. I published my EQ curve for the HD800 (non S) here:
    http://www.superbestaudiofriends.or...e-hd800-hd800s-thread.206/page-52#post-118229
    If an unmodded non S is what you have, these or other members' recommended EQ curves may just be the ticket to helping you get the best sound out of the HD800. If you try them and find them lacking, we can discuss what you're missing and make adjustments to the EQ based on your descriptions.

    b) customized HRTF processing to remove that other elephant in the room of headphone audio, extreme lack of room acoustics and the feeling of having every sound come from somewhere inside your head that's closely associated with this. http://www.head-fi.org/t/811837/nat...-for-foobar2000-v2-1-major-update-made-public is a free attempt for this that I made and is available to anybody with a computer with a few clicks and a Windows emulator if you need one.

    c) Physical mods to the headphones, which SBAF excels at, but you should read carefully what each mod is supposed to do to the sound and decide whether it is in a direction you desire, and whether you have the DIY skills to match.

    d) If you're using a computer as your source, there may be resampling / unintended DSP gremlins that need to be removed for the best sound. Windows 7 had such a resampling bug that was never fixed outside of a hotfix that you have to seek out directly (rather than pushed through any Windows Update), and Windows 10 may be the same way except without a fix in sight (or so I hear; I have not personally installed 10 myself so don't know). 8 was the only recent Windows install that "just worked" out of the box.

    (we can go on all day about why such concrete improvements fall in the "stuff you never knew" department for much of the population, but I think the first reasons are, they take serious thought / knowledge to implement and can just as likely screw up the sound on first try. Most people just give up and go with the crowd throwing money at the wall before these hard nuts yield their juicy bits. So don't be surprised if the canned examples I provided at (a) and (b) don't work at all for you. "If at first you don't succeed..." applies to these tweaks, much more than they do to buying equipment.)
    -----
    C'mon guys you can do better than this...
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  19. SKiring

    SKiring Friend

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    @Garns wish I saw your message earlier.
    You might be interested in my cutout: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...6/151426127389392897/HD800_liner_cutout_4.pdf. This does exactly that, without killing all the energy.

    @beemerphile use Tyll's cutout: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD800modTemplate.pdf, print it at 100%, without fit to page. It's the best "thin" cutout that works amazingly. Preferably you cut in the circle on or slightly inside the black lines. The line is thinner and works better on the ring.

    If anyone is interested I still have a crap ton of SBAF material (I bought a huge rug liner thanks to @jacq). Cork is so easy to obtain I really advise anyone to just try it themselves, preferably with 1,5 - 2mm.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  20. beemerphile

    beemerphile Friend

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    Yes, that is the template that I printed out-of-scale. Regardless, cutting the ID and OD and manipulating the narrow ring after it was cut was much more difficult to do well (for me) than making it in situ. I ended up with the same coverage intended by Tyll's template but with an easier install. Also, with the screw heads exposed and the trapezoidal piece separate, I can still disassemble the phones without having to redo the mod. It simply comes off with the ring and goes back on.[/user]
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017

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