USB Nervosa Thread Decrapifiers, pro interfaces, and bears oh my

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by zerodeefex, Sep 28, 2015.

  1. thegunner100

    thegunner100 Hentai Master Chief

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    The nervousa is getting to all-time high levels here.

    @winders - A lot of us on SBAF have put work into trying many different decrapifiers and USB solutions. The general consensus is that unless you are having dropouts or noise in the chain, they do not yield enough of an improvements in sound. The first post in this thread sums it up very well. You may be trying to have the longest digital chain here with the X > Y > Z > XX > Dac here but frankly, we don't care. If you think that it makes a difference, then good for you.

    Others have already advised you on our culture here and how we feel about decrapifiers. I will advise you to read MF's post, which was referenced earlier. No one is forcing you to stick around but if you want to be here, we do have a very established culture whether you like it or not.
     
  2. johnjen

    johnjen Doesn’t want to be here but keeps posting anyways

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    Let me also add that the ifi gear I have looked into doesn't measure up to the quality of other gear that I have used.
    Their claims are fraught with marketing mumbo jumbo such as their ipower with active feedback that is only effective in the 'audio bandwidth', which is not where the noise that needs to be dealt with, exists.

    Caveat emptor indeed.

    JJ
     
  3. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    However, it does appear to be a lot quieter than the usual switcher:

    http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?43277-iFi-iPower-for-Raspberry-PI&p=737514#post737514
     
  4. Skyline

    Skyline Double-blindly done with this hobby

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    Hey all,

    I'm really intrigued by the AES sound card option, but don't have the $600 or so to dish out. How are the older Lynx 16 PCI versions? They can typically be had in the $200 range. Do they lose out to the new cards in any major way?
     
  5. Changeling

    Changeling Tube Slut

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    I'm using the AES16 PCI version. Bought it really cheap and using it with Yggdrasil. Works like a charm.
    There's potentially a bit higher latency with the PCI cards vs PCI-e, but haven't seen any head to head comparisons being done, and I really could not care. I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything.
     
  6. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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  7. Skyline

    Skyline Double-blindly done with this hobby

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  8. audiosaint

    audiosaint New

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    Have anyone have actual (not heard from someone else) experience about comparing Su-1 with Lynx AES16 (not e, only the PCI version)?

    What was the result
     
  9. Changeling

    Changeling Tube Slut

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    Hi there!
    Head over to the introduction thread following the link below. It'll help you to get a good start here on SBAF.

    http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/new-members-introduce-yourself.17/
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2017
  10. winders

    winders boomer

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    Last edited: Feb 25, 2017
  11. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Questions about what "sounds best" for the various means of getting a clean AES or S/PDIF to a DAC came up in several threads prior to the server burp ... and while those posts are lost and I can't link them back here, since I had the information anyway, I'm going to repost it here (where it belongs):

    --

    While I have never gotten around to writing it up, I did an extensive comparison of AOIP/NAI and AES converters late last year (though admittedly sticking mostly to stuff that can work with Roon). From best to worst sound quality I found the results to be:
    1. Aries -> DAC
    2. RedNet -> Mutec MC-3+ -> DAC
    3. Lynx* -> Mutec MC-3+ -> DAC
    4. Aries LE -> Mutec MC-3+ -> DAC
    5. RedNet -> DAC
    6. Lynx* -> DAC
    7. Aries LE -> DAC
    8. Sonore MicroRendu -> Mutec MC-3+ USB -> DAC
    9. Mac Mini -> Mutec MC-3+ USB -> DAC
    10. Raspberry Pi + Digi+ Pro -> Mutec MC-3+ -> DAC
    11. Raspberry Pi -> Mutec MC-3+ USB -> DAC
    12. Sonore SonicOrbiter SE -> Mutec MC-3+ USB -> DAC
    In all the above cases the DAC was connected by either its AES input (best) or COAX S/PDIF.

    Mutec MC-3+ and Mutec MC-3+ USB sound identical. They are only listed specifically above to denote where you MUST have the version with a USB input form it to work.

    Aries and Aries LE are different versions of the product. The "LE" version is the cheaper version. The full "Aries" adds dual femto clocks, lower noise circuitry, more internal RAM and an external low-noise LPS.

    Adding a Mutec MC-3+ to the full version of the Aries results in worse results than using the Aries AES or S/PDIF outputs directly.

    When driving a DAC with proper internal re-clocking, such as Yggdrasil or Gungnir, I could hear no difference between items 2 vs. 5 and 3 vs. 6. The same configuration into the Spring DAC did yield audible differences with the Mutec device in the chain.

    References to "Lynx" include every professional PCIe AES/S/PDIF card I tried. I found no audible difference at all between any of them. You will generally see me claim that I have not heard the Lynx cards ... I actually have, but only as part of the above test and I don't have a way to run/test them anymore.

    Finally, the differences from top to bottom in this list are very small. If we gave option 1 a score of 100, then 2,3 and 4 would score a 99. 5, 6 and 7 would score a 97 or 98. And 8 through twelve would score a 95 or 96.

    To put that into further perspective, 1 through 7 are not something you're likely to hear differences between just listening to music. You'd have to be focusing as if you were auditioning them to tell any difference at all.
     
  12. Rockin_Zombie

    Rockin_Zombie Facebook Friend

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    Would you be able to comment on how these would compare to say, a DAC with an XMOS controller for ASIO USB? Curious whether adding an alternative source is worth it for the benchmark DAC3. I should just try one of the cheaper options (10-11) myself but I am super lazy.
     
  13. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    The short version is that, at least with the DACs I've tested that have an XMOS-based USB input, ALL of the above options will beat it (most recent testing with the Spring DAC).

    The XMOS stuff is best thought of, in my experience (both listening and from an engineering perspective) as a "USB interface" and/or "USB to I2S" construction kit for those that don't want to/aren't capable of implementing USB via more direct means. It's not really about "sound quality" for the end-user but more "convenience and speed to market" for the designer.

    Because the XMOS CORE is, in real terms, a high-performance, multi-core (and general purpose) SoC, it'll generate more switching/electrical noise than a simple USB interface ASIC, so unless that is properly accounted for (which isn't that common it seems, and almost never seems to be tackled with the Chi-Fi stuff) it can be detrimental in ways beyond the normal USB issues.

    Now, done PROPERLY, with shielding and so on, and using the top-spec XMOS boards (that take you all the way from USB to I2S with high-grade clocks etc.) it can be one of the better USB input implementations, but most DACs that tout XMOS as a feature tend NOT to go that route. Most of the time, if you get to seem them opened up, the XMOS board will be sitting there, usually wherever it's most convenient to place it - rather than where it would be best for isolation. And in those cases I tend to read things as "Warning: XMOS inside".
     
  14. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    I've noticed quite a difference with my newly acquired full Aries and my computer AES16 PCI card. The former sounds significantly more analytical through my Gungnir Multibit/Mjo2/HD800S than the Lynx setup, which is much more laid back and dark. The Lynx almost seems rolled off compared to the Aries. Whether various connections through the Lynx setup like the aes cable>transformer>bnc plays a factor vs. the aries ethernet>coax I'm not sure as I haven't bothered to AB them.

    I'm using the Aries in my 2.0 system anyways where I'll be comparing it to the Squeezebox Touch/Regen setup. I've read some users think that to get the best out of the USB out of the Aries that the Regen still improves things, which is actually quite surprising given that you can only select USB or the other digital outputs. I would expect that this is to supply proper power/isolate noise/proper clock as I've seen a flow chart somewhere online outlining the chain internally.

    JRiver is nice as I can downsample my DSD files to 24/192 located in my offer, control everything with JRemote and forego any USB in the chain from the living room. The Tidal aspect of the Lightning DS software isn't up to Tidal's own app, it's much less easy to just click a button to play all but am rather forced to build a playlist. Fortunately Airplay mitigates this annoyance.

    Lastly, I haven't bothered with a wire vs. wireless setup. Wired seems more reliable as JRiver seems to stop playing the playlist I've created until I hit start again. No dropouts over wireless though, even with the bigger files.
     
  15. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    I've read that too.

    Having tried a bunch of devices, including Wyrd, Regen, Recovery, iUSB, Jitterbug and Intona/J-CAT devices out of the Aries' USB port, things were either no different or they got worse. Obviously mileage may vary here, but I couldn't find a use for any one of them with the Aries.

    While I was messing around with that I also tried those units in front of my Singxer SU-1, just to see if that made any difference. And, in that case, there was either no detectable difference or the chain just didn't work AT ALL.

    (Also ... clocks don't really matter for USB ... they're irrelevant to sample jitter in any USB 2.0 Async DAC.)
     
  16. hifi01170

    hifi01170 Acquaintance

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    A friend of mine, in the hobby kept on praising the aries (femto) and has now since moved on to the Auralic Altair (with DAC included). He's now found fullfilment... :D
    Might a good option for a one box to rule them all kinda solution!
     
  17. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    I ran the Aries into a Vega for a while and that was a nice setup. Not quite my preference, but quite good all the same. It'd be interesting to see how close to that performance the Altair managed, given that it's barely any more expensive than just the full-fat version of the Aries, and yet includes the streamer, DAC, inputs, headphone output and pre-amp functionality.

    I should probably add the Altair to the "Life after Yggdrasil" comparisons. And, beyond that, I should probably try and group the units that have built-in headphone outputs together, as well as sub-grouping the units that are essentially self-contained systems that just happen to be useable as a DAC.
     
  18. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    According to the Auralic pres, it's between the Aries mini and a bit below the Vega using the linear power supply.

    More accurately:

    “You are not expecting the same sound quality from the VEGA for this price, right?” says AURALiC CEO Xuanqian Wang via email.

    Wang pegs the ALTAIR’s sound quality as somewhere between the VEGA and the ARIES Mini’s (analogue output) once the Linear PSU has been applied. We should therefore view the ALTAIR as a hardware extension of AURALiC’s Aries Mini but with an added headphone output.

    And so it comes from the horse’s PR mouth: “ALTAIR is definitely a line extension, and not a replacement of the ARIES MINI or our award-winning VEGA DAC or ARIES Streamers,”emphasises the press release.

    http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/04/auralic-marry-vega-and-aries-for-new-altair-streaming-dac/
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
  19. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Which makes total sense.

    The question is, how much "sound quality" are you really giving up in exchange for the all-in-one functionality. Looking forward to finding out. It's nice to see that Auralic gave the Altair support for Roon as well. I think Auralic are being a bit daft in holding that feature back from the Aries Mini ... based on the discussions in the Roon community it'd rapidly become the defacto-standard* way to connect serious DACs to Roon.

    Even if they made it a $100 add-on option for the Mini the Roon crowd would likley go for it ...

    --

    *Selfishly I actually hope they don't, as that's one less thing for me to compete against when I get around to releasing my "box".
     
  20. hifi01170

    hifi01170 Acquaintance

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    darko places the Altair as a streamer between the aries mini and aries femto (if I remember correctly).
    In terms of DAC, he places the Altair a bit below the Vega...
     

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