Tube Vs. Solid State

Discussion in 'Power Amps' started by shaizada, Nov 23, 2016.

  1. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Let's break up this tense moment with a wonderful old school advertisement for vacuum tubes...

    [​IMG]

    p.s. you do not want to know the horrors that google image search brought upon me when I tried to find this picture...
     
  2. landroni

    landroni Friend

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    Right, but surely measurements... err... 'results of lab testing simulations' are qualified by (personal) opinion...
     
  3. tomchr

    tomchr MOT - Neurochrome

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    I'm am genuinely interested in improving on this and am intrigued (and concerned) about this undermining that you're picking up on. That's a good observation. I definitely want to change that. Would you mind if I toss you a PM? I'd greatly appreciate your insight.

    Tom
     
  4. tomchr

    tomchr MOT - Neurochrome

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    I found the O2 "meh" as well. I haven't had a chance to measure it yet.

    Thank you. The Modulus-286 boards will be here by the 28th, FedEx says. Just in time for me to skip town. Grr...! FedEx does occasionally deliver a day or two early, so they might be here on the 26th. We'll see. I'll get some preliminary info on my website within the next couple of days and open up for pre-orders.

    I agree 200 %. A mesh plate 300B will outperform any solid state amplifier on looks in the dark any day of the week.

    Tom
     
  5. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    You know what I miss the most about having a tube amp? It helped keep that corner of my room warm during these cold Canadian winters. I'm not even joking.
     
  6. chakku

    chakku Friend

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    Are Class A/AB solid states not enough? :p
     
  7. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    There's something about a glowing heat source with my seared thumbprint on it...
     
  8. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    "Too objective for subjectivists; too subjective for objectivsts" springs to mind.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2016
  9. Grahad

    Grahad Guest

    On the subtopic of objectively designed solid states, I'd be interested in your thoughts of "The Wire" as well.
     
  10. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    If measurements really mattered as much as people say they did, then the better integrated class D amps would never ever beat some class A or class AB solid state for anything. Yet the Class D amps in my car, JBLs, tons of mobos, many mass market receivers, and Hypex stuff take a massive dump on "objectively good" amps that measure perfectly fine. Once you crank it to realistic levels, the noise floor doesn't matter that much and the much better microdynamics and macrodynamics than crappy op-amp wth tons of negative feedback take over.

    The whole debate about MOAR NUMBERS = MOAR BETTERER reminds of GIlette with the MOAR BLADEZ = BETTER SHAVES bullshit when all of Gillette's plastic crap gets outperformed by shit from the 50s, disposable Bic stuff made in imitation of old Schticks, and random Japanese and Chinese clones of older double-edged Gilletes. Then you have some Thiers-Issard lead-harderend straight razored made the same since the 19th century with that destroys them all in practical use (1-2 passes!) when rehoned unless you are a hung over, twenty year old fratboy hacking away at his face like Jack Nicholson bashed down that door in The Shining.

    If objectivists are claiming to be to God/the messiah of the audio gear, then guys like Craig Uthus and Bruno Putzeys are nailing "God" to a tree and leaving him to rot. "Objectivist amplifiers" aren't coming back from the dead as they're not Jesus; they're mediocrity for all Stalinist garbage.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
  11. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    I should have said that my quote was coming from head designer at ifi audio Thorsten Loesch. if you think that what he said was bogus, im not technically advanced enough to debate on you. but doubt what he said was bogus.

    about the price to build something similar then a no compromise SS like my sony 707, it would cost much more then 400$.

    all I know is the only amps I loved were either SS lateral mosfet or tube amps.
     
  12. tomchr

    tomchr MOT - Neurochrome

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    I compared my Modulus-86 with the Hypex NC400 both on the bench and in the living room. The NC400 is a nice amp. Very likely one of the best Class D amps out there. If I needed the power, I'd buy one of Hypex' amps.

    Then Modulus-86 beats the NC400 on THD+N by 10 dB from 20 Hz to 5 kHz and increasing amounts from there as the THD of the NC400 shoots up rather dramatically starting at 5 kHz. By 20 kHz the THD+N of the NC400 measures nearly 0.1 %. The Modulus-86 measures 0.001 % at 20 kHz. The Modulus-86 beats the NC400 on IMD as well (by about 8 dB).
    These measurements are relevant as - at least in my experience - the listening experience is considerably more pleasant if the THD+N is either flat vs frequency or well below the threshold of audibility across the audible spectrum. I generally find that the rise in THD+N vs frequency towards the high end of the audible spectrum sounds harsh to me.

    My subjective experience of the NC400 was that it sounded a bit harsh. It had a good grip on the bass but I found the upper midrange and highs harsh and a bit muddy. The Modulus-86 is clean across the entire audible spectrum.

    Then again, no amp is perfect. If you need hundreds of watt to reach the desired SPL in your listening space, the Modulus-86 won't cut it (unless your listening space is small and your speakers efficient). You'll need the power of a Class D amp.
    Most don't need hundreds of watt, though. I encourage those curious about how much power is needed to produce a given SPL in a room to check out this SPL calculator.

    Bruno Putzeys is an engineer's engineer. He is extremely science-based. His design philosophy (and mine as well) is to maximize the loop gain of the amp across the audio range. He pulls out all the stops on the control loop design in his amps and has several talks on the topic. I'll see if I can dig some of them out for you. They're very informative.
    I employ the same philosophy. I just apply it to Class AB amps, which simplifies the control loop design considerably.

    Tom
     
  13. Grahad

    Grahad Guest

    Putzey's more esoteric designs seems to avoid the THD+N rise: http://mola-mola.nl/index.php/ct-menu-item-3
    Edit: Ok so others have measured and well: http://www.soundstage.com/index.php...rs&catid=97:amplifier-measurements&Itemid=154
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 22, 2016
  14. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    As an engineer I can say Measurements mater. With out them and with out control theory, those munitions that Mike Moffat keeps referring to when talking about accuracy and DACs would indeed likely hit some random hospital instead of the target.

    The fact that someone liked this or that audio product is another story.

    There is no "objectivism". There is engineering and knowing what you are doing, or not.

    There is art to music and music appreciation. There is art an elegance as well on certain designs.
     
  15. tomchr

    tomchr MOT - Neurochrome

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    Yep. That's in line with what I measure.

    The Kaluga is indeed an interesting amp. It does look like Bruno turned the loop gain up a notch. I would expect the THD+N to follow the loop gain - just as the output impedance does. So I'd expect a steep rise at 15-ish kHz. That's not likely to be relevant for the listening experience and I'd expect the amp to provide a pleasant listening experience - assuming it is as good as in Hypex' previous designs. Awesome. Good for Bruno.

    Tom
     
  16. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Also I try to learn from folks like @Psalmanazar. I also try to learn from folks like @tomchr.

    There is lots we can learn from one another. Way more productive than taking "objectivist" and "subjectivist" stances.
     
  17. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    You never addressed why amps based on Bruno Putzeys' hypex modules generally sound less micro and macro dynamically compressed than yours. Why do the amps in cheap JBL powered monitors have so much more microdynamics too?

    Are you NwAvGuy? Did you disappear when you realized how bad new wave became? Crank some New Order after they starting making dance music in the late eighties and became absolutely terrible? Was that your reason for laying low? If I had a Power, Lies, and Corruption floral tattoo, I would lay low too.

    Measures well, sounds bad, still fails horribly. I want to hear the music. I don't hear the music; crappy solid state amps sound like I'm trying to place my order at a Wendy's drive through menu but some idiot is playing FM radio on a ghetto blaster on the other side of the restaurant thirty feet away from the booth and I'm stuck listening to radio compression on top of drive thru intercom compression.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
  18. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I dont think @tomchr is NwAvGuy.

    There is no "New Order".

    I fail to get what you are trying to convey at this point. That characterization does not mater?

    If you dont like solid state amps don't buy them. But I fail to see the point of your jihad here. Well designed solid state amps sound good to me and some others here. Are you trying to say we are deaf and you are the golden eared one we should follow?

    I already heard your distortion and compression talk. What else is there you would like to add? Wendys? Power, lies, and corruption? WTF?
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
  19. SteelCannon

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    @ultrabike What solid state amps sound good to you? I may be showing my inexperience here, but the majority of solid state headphone amps I have heard, even the well reviewed ones like ec bw, schiit rag, jot etc have been extremely unimpressive. The main issue for me is grain, glare and a lack of realism or depth in the staging. And I say that as someone who likes hard hitting, controlled, neutral amps.
     
  20. brencho

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    Jesus @Psalmanazar. Anyone with half a brain can see that you're trolling tom. Anyone liking your posts now are just (knowingly or unknowingly) instigating more useless and annoying trolling. This is not only boring, but this kind of repeated dumptaking is damaging to sbaf.

    There's not even a premise to an argument anymore. If there is, it goes something like: measurements and math is dumb. Ok so I sorry you failed math in school or whatever. But if this were true, then you should be able to make for yourself an amp that suits your preferences. I dunno, maybe you'd have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich as the power supply unit, some chicken nuggets as the transformer. Why don't you go clean up your room and help your parents with stuff rather than persist in mindless trolling.

    EDIT: For full disclosure, I don't understand amp measurements. Maybe one day i'll apply myself a little bit to understand what people are talking about. But for now, I let those conversations happen without crapping on them. For example, noone craps on atomicbob, who is a mensch btw, when he measures and discusses amp measurements. There are plenty of threads here that are exclusively impression threads, and that's where I (and most of us) participate. I also happen to prefer tube amps, and all my amps are tube based or hybrid with the exception of jediheiser. That doesn't prevent me from gchatting with TMoney regularly, who is about $10k deep into solid state amps. Here's a super corny thought - sbaf should be a diverse tapestry (lol) of people with sometimes different perspectives that can nonetheless have intelligent conversations with each other. This used to be an interesting thread of tubes vs. solid state, hoping mods clean up all of our garbage (my own included) to return this to being a useful thread.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016

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