Wells Audio Experience (Milo, Enigma, Headtrip)

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by ufospls2, Jul 19, 2017.

  1. ufospls2

    ufospls2 Friend

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    Hi Guys,

    I realise I'm a rando, so take my opinion and ramble with a grain of salt. Though this thread is more of a question, rather than impressions. I could post and share my full experience with the Milo and Headtrip if anyone is interested as I've owned both, just let me know.

    I'm not a Wells Audio "Fanboy", and I'm really open to everyones experiences and opinions. I'm trying to figure out why they are so different from my own.

    The general opinion on SBAF and HC (not Head-fi) etc... seems to be that the Wells Audio amps sound like shit, are built like shit, and are just shit in general. I'm curious why this is.

    I spent over a year listening to every amp I could get my hands on, before deciding to purchase the Milo. I then enjoyed the Milo so much I purchased the Headtrip. I didn't pay retail on the Headtrip, but it was still expensive. To be honest, I'm still enjoying the Headtrip to this day.

    I wanted to go with the Schiit Mjolnir 2 originally. It had all the features I wanted, and was at a price that was very attractive. I compared it directly to the more expensive iFi iCAN PRO, and to all the other amps I had heard previously from memory. It sounded far from what I was looking for. Muddy, overly warm, and smearing all the details. This really surprised me given all the praise it receives from others. I should note, It had the stock tubes installed, and I suppose my experience may have been different with other tubes, or the LIIIIIISSSST SS tube thingies.

    The iCAN Pro was really impressive, to the point where I almost bought one. It had great clarity, and more features than anyone could ever want. It sounded a bit cold and sterile to me, but that might have been the DAC I was using (Mytek Brooklyn.) I knew I wanted a bit more warmth, so I ended up purchasing the Milo.

    The Milo had everything I wanted. A bit warmth, great clarity, wide soundstage, big bass etc...Exactly the opposite of all the other opinions I have read, minus a few. I was comparing it directly to my Auralic Taurus Mk2, which seemed closed in, rolled off in the treble, and just generally "not good" in comparison to the Milo. Previously, I had thought the Taurus was a great amp!

    Was there something wrong with the Mjolnir 2 and the Taurus? I really don't know. I find my iFi iDSD Black label and the iCAN Pro to have more in common with the Milo than the Mjolnir and Taurus.

    This brings me to my main question. Are my ears broken?

    My experiences with the Wells Audio amps are so different than a lot of people who's opinion I respect, that it makes me think, maybe they are broken. With that being said, my opinions on other amps (and DACs) do parallel those peoples opinions, quite a lot of the time.

    I know that at the end of the day, you like what you like, and other peoples opinions really don't matter. I guess I'm just curious why my ears hear these amps so differently from everyones else ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I apologise if this is a waste of a thread. Thanks for chiming in if you do.
     
  2. pedalhead

    pedalhead Friend

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    I suspect the main issue with Wells Audio is the perceived lack of value. When you charge that kind of coin for a solid state amp you can reasonably be expected to use top shelf components. I'm not an EE but I've seen comments that say this is not the case. Also, the Bybee stuff is seen as snake oil by many people.

    I used to own a Wells Enigma (bought 2nd hand, I wouldn't pay new prices). I enjoyed it, though recognized it wasn't the last word in detail resolution. At the asking price, I suspect Wells stuff is somewhat typical "high end" chassis-engineered stuff (fancy chassis, middle of the road internals).
     
  3. ufospls2

    ufospls2 Friend

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    I think that is definitely part of it, especially the perceived lack of value. Perhaps if prices were less, people would be more receptive to the Wells Audio gear. Though that wouldn't negate build quality concerns, and the heart of the matter, how they sound. Thanks for sharing your thoughts :)
     
  4. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    I think the only reason these things sell at all is the price - especially with the HeadTrip. By which I mean people by them because they're expensive and want to show off. The whole "conspicuous consumption" thing. In most (not all, and I don't include @ufospls2 here) cases, the people I've seen loudly proclaiming their virtues have a solid, easily viewed, track record of always preferring whatever it is that's most expensive at the time. There are some good examples of this on Head-Fi if you dig around, with one notable offender who goes through amplifiers like candy - in between invoking HF moderators to clean up the aftermath of some of his more ridiculous claims in other areas.

    When I heard the HeadTrip I was quite surprised.

    I had expected something with massive grip, first-rate dynamics, serious slam, super-fast presentation, stratospheric headroom and a sense of ease in it's presentation that I find only when using unnecessarily powerful amplifiers with transducers that are usually happy with much less juice. At a minimum, even if there are tonal or resolution issues, such traits tend to result in a "fun" and sometimes "addictive" presentation.

    What I heard was lifeless, sterile, hard, un-involving, somewhat plodding, had no sense of space, and while macro-dynamics were decent micro-dynamics suffered, and slam, while better than some amps, wasn't any better than things I've heard that cost a fraction of the asking price here. These aspects didn't really change regardless of what headphone I tried, which at the time included the Abyss, LCD-4 and HD800S. Actually, slam was a bit better with the LCD-4 ... but they're power-hungry little bastards - but juice them properly and they'll do the same with other, much less expensive, amps as well (no lack of slam with the LCD-4 and a Schiit Lyr 2 for example).

    I was reminded of the Vioelectric stuff in terms of overall experience. Yes, there were differences ... the Vioelectric unit had better micro-dynamics and resolution, and was generally more refined, wasn't hard ... though was a bit "darker" and had a similar "speed" to it's presentation. There were also some traits that recalled aspects of a mid-level Audio-GD amplifier I'd heard earlier in the year. And, though the Audio-GD was not my cup of tea, it was a much more musical and interesting listen than the HeadTrip had been.

    Then, when the top came off the thing for a look-see ... that pretty much killed it for me. I thought the inside was a mess, with some very strange component choices ... not just for a product at this price level - but for any "audiophile" amplifier. The distinct impression was more of "how can we wedge all this shit in here" rather than "how should we lay things out for the best possible performance". When I subsequently came across the Head Case commentary on the thing I was not, at all, surprised. Yes, they tend to tear almost everything apart, but it was still interesting to see some of their comments mirror my initial thoughts.

    After that we get to all that Bybee Quantum Purifier nonsense ... which I regard as extremely expensive snake-oil ... of the worst kind.

    I've heard stuff DIY-modded with some of these bits outside the context of the HeadTrip (oddly the first time was also an Audio-GD amplifier that had a Bybee AC module and a couple of inline filters installed in it) and all I can say is that, while the listening was done a couple of days apart, if it sounded any different at all then it wasn't apparent to me. It certainly didn't transform the amplifier from it's previously competent-but-not-for-me status ... all that really happened was that the amp was suddenly about twice as expensive for the same performance.

    I think, at the end of the day, that it's easily possible to get better technical and more enjoyable audible performance for a small fraction of what Wells Audio ask for these things. From a musical enjoyment perspective I would put Schiit's Jotunheim ahead of the HeadTrip. And even for the budget of a used Milo, I could have a Jotunheim, a Lyr 2 (with some nice tube choices), and a Saga, for a whole variety of possible results ... all of which I'd rather listen to than the HeadTrip.

    People like what they like though - for all manner of reasons, many of which have four-fifths of f**k-all to do with how things might actually sound.

    My engineering bias might well have pre-disposed me to skepticism, maybe even outright dislike, on the HeadTrip. So might the price. And I did go into it knowing about the Bybee stuff ... which always raises my ire. It'd be interesting (for me) to do a DBT against that and something much less expensive/fanciful, to the level that I don't even know what amps are up for comparison, and see if I react to it the same way again.

    --

    If you're enjoying it I wouldn't be concerned with what other's think or say though. One way to spend a lot of money to no real useful effect in this hobby is to pay too much attention to the likes, dislikes and fashions of others. I know, for me, I listen to music for pleasure. I was much happier in that pursuit when I stopped worrying about things like "flat response" (speaker wise ...), and what other's were doing. I'd rather listen to a rig that makes me smile and gets my feet tapping or makes me want to get up and dance than some megabuck monstrosity that is the envy of everyone I know and that I wind up not using because it just doesn't "do it" for me.
     
  5. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    I heard a Milo recently and it was just... very warm and soft. It also weighs very little and I wonder what the heck is actually inside, or if they just built up a massive chassis and heat sink for brownie points.
     
  6. ufospls2

    ufospls2 Friend

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    I am enjoying it, which is what makes me wonder why my listening experience seems to vary so much from others. I do think there are people who buy x (the Headtrip in particular) due to the price, wanting to show off or be the talk of the block, OR hear it at a show and say its good due to the price and not wanting to look silly. I bought it because I genuinely enjoyed the Milo more than other amps I had heard in that price range, and actually overall. I was looking for slam, dynamics, clarity etc...which I found in the Milo, more than the Taurus or others. The experiences of others has me second guessing myself and my ears. Someone recommended the Mjolnir 2 over the Headtrip, which, due to my experience with the Mjolnir 2, made me wonder what was going on. I'm going to do some listening to other amps when time permits, and see if anything has changed. I might do a comparison with my iDSD BL and see how that goes.


    Another opinion which makes me even more curious. I found the Milo warm, but not overly so, with great slam. Weird huh? Thanks for sharing :)
     
  7. Thenewerguy009

    Thenewerguy009 Friend

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    What headphones & DAC are you currently using the HeadTrip, ufospls2?
     
  8. ufospls2

    ufospls2 Friend

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    Abyss Phi, LCD-4, Perfectwave MK1 upgraded to MK2. I should have put that in the original post, my bad.
     
  9. Thenewerguy009

    Thenewerguy009 Friend

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    I can see why you would like the HeadTrip with the Abyss & LCD-4. They do scale up with more power from all the impressions I read & the HeadTrip has 50 watts on hand.

    The Mjolnir 2, Taurus & iCAN Pro don't have anywhere as much power & for those two specific headphones, would probably under powered. Even the Milo's 18 watts is way ahead of them.

    Did you ever try any of less power hungry HP like the Fosetx, Sennheiser, Berydynamics, Focal, Hifiman etc with the HeadTrip/Milo?
     
  10. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Utter nonsense.

    The Pro iCAN has way more juice than needed to properly drive Abyss or LCD-4. Hell, it has more than enough juice to instantly fry them.

    Underpowered my ass.

    You might want to actually listen to this stuff rather than just spouting specs, and the opinions of others, that you don't seem to understand. But if we do just go by the numbers, to get anywhere near that maximum power output the Milo is operating with 10x the distortion. Even in it's lowest gain mode the Pro iCAN pushes every headphone I've tried to ear-splitting levels and with plenty of drive authority, which includes my Abyss, LCD-4, Utopia, HD800S and anything else I've ever had running through it.
     
  11. Mithrandir41

    Mithrandir41 Friend

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    Hell, the Mjolnir 2 will drive the living shit out of virtually any can, including the HE-6. Tonal preferences may vary, but since when is 8 watts into 32 ohms underpowered?
     
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Need to be careful here. I don't like seeing this kind of misunderstanding on SBAF. 50W into what load? 18W into what load? Driving 8 ohms is one thing. Driving 40 ohms means 5 times less power than 8 ohms - at best and in ideal circumstances - which never happens in reality. Higher Z means more voltage the amp needs to crank out. Lower Z means more current. Amps will run out of voltage or current at some point.

    V=IR
    P=V^2/R
    P=IV

    Live and die by the above equations.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
  13. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Wells Audio claim that Milo delivers 18W into 8 ohms (at 1KHz, and 0.015% THD). They also claim 12W into 32 ohms (and 10W into 46 ohms). Take the numbers for HeadTrip (50W also into 8 ohms), and they go similarly wonky as you step up the impedance.

    So there's something else going on there.

    I've a good idea what it is ... and it's not some proprietary tech that "let's us magically avoid the laws of physics".
     
  14. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Copying from the webpage... http://www.wellsaudio.com/milo/

    Jebus, 30dB of gain?? :rolleyes::drunk:
     
  15. gbeast

    gbeast Mighty Moral Power Ranger

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    ^ I can't back you up this time bud. The iFi Pro iCan is extremely powerful. Also it has some punch, weight, and musicality to it that makes the AGD HE-9 seem boring as all get out.

    Also if he was running it with the Mytek then it may make it sound lean whereas with my Pavane it sounds full bodied. I could be in the minority there though.

    _______________________________
    I think the number I would be looking at the wells audio site is the 10W into 46 ohms and the 30bs of gain. That makes you have to do things like lower the volume in your playback software and barely turn the pot. But then you can have channel imbalances based on when the amp actually phases up right.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
  16. ufospls2

    ufospls2 Friend

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    I actually don't find the gain too much, I have more than enough play on the volume dial. Granted I am using two fairly difficult to drive headphones.

    Thats really interesting that you find it is full bodied sounding with your Pavane. It probably was the Mytek I was hearing. I'm going to give the Pro iCAN another listen when I get home from travelling. I really enjoy my iDSD BL, so I'm interested to hear the Pro iCAN with my Perfectwave.

    I don't notice any channel imbalance with my Headtrip, but there was some with the Milo (stock, not with the upgrade Khozmo.)

    Definitely agree about the Pro iCAN being more than powerful enough, it drove my LCD-4 and Abyss with authority.
     
  17. bigfatpaulie

    bigfatpaulie Tried to screw other friends while playing victim

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    Interesting read here so far.

    On the note of power... For me, personally, more power has never been about volume. People talk about this or that amp having enough to blow the drivers hence, it is powerful enough to drive it. I guess on paper that's true, but so what? Who listens consistently at that level? And I'm not talking about 'synergy', either.

    For example, my iPhone can drive my HD800 to seemingly ear bleeding levels but I don't think many would feel that it has enough power for HD800's.

    More clean power, in my experience (especially as someone who listens at notoriously low volumes), is about control, speed and dynamics more than volume. Things sound faster, tighter and cleaner at the same volume with more power vs less power. Less smearing. I find this tends to even more be true of the type of power. Class A offering more of these characteristics vs A/B despite having 'less' power.

    Now, I realize I don't really have a good way of testing this, after all, any A/B would be two totally different amps. The closest I've heard side by side were Pass INT-30A and the INT-150. It all gets a bit of mess because the 150 was clearly superior with harder to drive speakers and the 30a with more efficient speakers, even at similar volumes. But again, this is all my very subjective unscientific experience.

    Anyway, all I am saying is that term 'underpowered' may be a bit of a bastardized term like, oh I don't know... Balanced. I think people are using the same terminology in inconsistent ways causing confusion.
     
  18. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    You either have enough power to maintain the necessary current for a given voltage into a given load without going into clipping, or you don't. Any more than that is just giving the amplifier more head room ... or, simply put, keeps it operating further away from it's limits. And while that tends to result in better sound, it's not because the transducers are somehow drawing more current "just because it's there".

    Regardless, the numbers offered on Wells Audio's site don't make much sense ... and even if taken at face value still aren't very pretty. And there was no more "control" or "authority" with the Head Trip than there was with a Lyr 2 when I heard it.
     
  19. bigfatpaulie

    bigfatpaulie Tried to screw other friends while playing victim

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    Please don't get me wrong - I was not disagreeing with you.
     
  20. ufospls2

    ufospls2 Friend

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    This may seem like curious timing, but I came to the decision it was time to move on and have sold my Headtrip. Not because others feel that it isn't a good piece of gear. Simply because I don't want to, and currently can't, have that kind of money all wrapped up in one piece of equipment. I suppose I feel I can obtain most of the sound quality, or simply a different kind of sound quality, from cheaper gear. I am picking up a used Audio-GD Master 9 for what seemed to be a very fair price, so that will be a starting point of searching for a better, or different, cost/performance ratio in terms of heaphone amps.

    I guess owning the Headtrip scratched the itch of needing to try, and own, a "Top of the line" piece of gear. Now that itch has been scratched, I'm happier to live with less, and have fun riding the merry go round of trying to find the amp for me and my ears that doesn't require selling a kidney.

    /blog (sorry I'm bored.)

    I think my final thoughts on my experience of owning Wells Audio products, both the Milo and Headtrip, is that it has reinforced what most always suggest. Try before you buy(if possible,) don't buy into hype, and keep an open mind.You might find you love something others hate, or hate something others love ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.


    Thanks for all the advice and thoughts posted in this thread thus far, it has been helpful.

    If anyone has questions about Wells Audio gear, or wants to posts impressions of Wells Audio gear (positive or negative,) maybe this has become a good place to do it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017

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