Xec needs listening/whisky room advice

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by Xecuter, Oct 30, 2016.

  1. Xecuter

    Xecuter Brush and floss your amp twice a day

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    i did want to keep my EC studio as my main speaker amp, but it just limits my speaker choices too severely..
     
  2. Mngnt

    Mngnt New

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    Went through a music room/studio build in my basement recently. Nowhere near as fancy as what you're doing and I did it all myself (room inside a room with green glue and osb/drywall layers, etc).

    One thing jumped out at me after reading your plans - for sound proof you don't want triple anything, as more air cavities is actually worse for sound transmission. Be sure your contractors have valid experience and knowledge in work like this, as a lot of it is counter intuitive. Doing it the right vs wrong way is often a matter of simply using the materials in a different way, not necessarily more of anything. Going through all the trouble of isolated walls etc can be completely useless if a shortcut is taken elsewhere (untreated holes in the walls for electrical outlets, improper ventilation, etc).

    Please don't take this the wrong way, your setup will be incredible, but I definitely think the audio consultant is a good Idea!

    Looking forward to build pics!
     
  3. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

    Pyrate
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    6W in 8 Ohms isn't much to work with... What kind of music do you listen to?
     
  4. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Studio can likely drive some totl horns or widebanders loud enough for even mid-far field use.
    The amount of trouble and bling you are diving in you should get effin' full range sound in return.

    For proper bass forget Studio right away. It won't have a firm grip of large bass drivers.
    And forget sub bass with that amount of power and 4 ohms or what ever it's source resistance is.

    The bass section can be of arbitrary sensitivity, you can feed either of the potential amp candidates with attenuation, won't degrade the sound more than any high quality pot.

    Maybe some Accuphase class A or even Vidar could perform the bass part.
    Push-pull will have better grip, at least on paper.
    Good class A solid state is likely closer to Studio in character. More tuneful and rich in microdynamics.
     
  5. JCYK

    JCYK New

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    20K Aud can get you a Franco Serblin Ktema, beautiful beautiful speakers, amazing sound.

    As for amps, i cannot more highly recommend, Airtight ATM 3 Monoblocks, jason would concur on this one. By the way, these monoblocks have attenuators on em, so no need for a pre.

    Alternatively, the flagship A class amps for Accuphase, the A200, can be found for less than 16k USD a pair if you get them from hong kong or japan. They were recently displaced by the A210 which was released a few months back. I doubt that the A210 is even better. But i do know the A200 are absolutely glorious. You dont need to get the pair, one would suffice.

    You can then use the studio as a preamp.

    Rotijon here btw, cant seem to login to my old account.
     
  6. Xecuter

    Xecuter Brush and floss your amp twice a day

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    I tend to listen to a a wide range of genres. I mainly chase really clean and crisp recording/mastering but will listen to anything from RATM to classical. I'm also a big fan of good vocalists but again anything from Tom Waits to Agnes Obel.

    I did consider bi-amping. Using the voxativ ampeggio due with the voxativ subwoofer and maybe a monster class D amp to run the sub with DSP etc.
    Another possibility was just running two speaker set ups, one 'blow your dick off' rig (the JBL or maybe the proac d100) and another laser precise horn option like the PSE-144E, voxativ or OB.This is pretty costly though as I increase my costs in amps and speakers significantly..
    I also considered commissioning a more power set of tube monoblocks to handle harder loads..
    Too many options...


    Oh man, good to hear from you rotijon!
    I have heard the Accuphase A200 and thought it was excellent, I really just want to get into the speaker game first. As I hear more stuff I can always sell and upgrade as I gain more experience and understanding into what I want..

    Hope you are well my friend. Hoping to get your SFL-2 back in action with this room some how.
     
  7. JCYK

    JCYK New

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    Definitely, all the kit i mentioned above have fantastic resale value, especially if you buy second hand. Heck, id expect a profit. If im honest, i doubt that my speaker hobby since its beginning would cost more than 5k if i were to liquidate my permanent system now.

    Franco Serblin Ktema - The original creator for this Franco Serblin is the guy who founded sonus faber. This is his final masterpiece. The price ain't going nowhere, he is not coming out of the grave to make a new one. A second hand one can be bought for 12-15k USD. Shipping is the only biggie.

    Airtight ATM 3 - Its been in production since 40 years ago. Very very difficult to find a second hand unit. Its basically totl, even if one were to spend that crazy money, its not guaranteed to be better, at best, more power. Founder is also in his 90's, he never makes direct upgrades, just different sound products. Also just a beautiful match with the Ktema, not that super warm and adddictive EAR sound, more balanced, better punch and precision. You can use these with the SFL 2. There was once a unit in Singapore for 10k SGD. I think you can get it around there locally.

    A200 - Solid state aint going to get much better than this. If at all. Secondhand prices will not drop much more as accuphase always has a Schiit-ish reputation in high end.
     
  8. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    I was thinking if you don't have that much power on tap, something with big JBL horns might be the ticket.
     
  9. Xecuter

    Xecuter Brush and floss your amp twice a day

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    The JBL I liked (4367) is 94dbl, they claim 6watts will push it well enough, but I think I might have to get a bit more power to really get the JBL thumping. I could bi-amp:
    [​IMG]
     
  10. ButtUglyJeff

    ButtUglyJeff Stunningly beautiful IRL

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    ^^^ Boy your Studio would be great for the Mid/High frequencies. Then add something SBAF approved for the bass...

    edit - can a Studio's pre-out and speaker amp section be active at the same time?
     
  11. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    With 8W driving 2x94dB speakers at 3m distance you're getting 96dB peaks tops. Single digit wattage amps require triple digit sensitivity speakers.
     
  12. Xecuter

    Xecuter Brush and floss your amp twice a day

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    I don't think the studio can be used as a pre. There are no pre-outs.
     
  13. SineDave

    SineDave Friend

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    You should bi-amp the bass with some nice class D stuff IMO.
     
  14. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    I'm using my old EC 2A3 as pre from speaker outs (imagine, it's also balanced, hehe). Haven't had better pre.
    It would be somewhat waste of good 2A3 tubes, which Studio has 4.
    A 2A3 tube amp with ot-s is imo quite excellent for the job from technical pov.
    I imagine specialized transformer (smaller, less losses, even less distortion into high ohms) for pre use would be upgrade still.
    Maybe if you ask nicely, Craig will make the 45 pre a reality.
     
  15. ButtUglyJeff

    ButtUglyJeff Stunningly beautiful IRL

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    I'm far form a speaker wizard, but I might disagree with that. While modern inefficient speakers would crave the class D stuff, these JBLs are throw backs to when JBL made amazeballs super sized studio monitors. They sipped watts not gulped. I wouldn't rule any amp category out (I'd want class A hoping for some sweet sweet mid bass)
     
  16. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    Besides watts'a'plenty, D class is also known for really high damping factors. Makes bass extra firm. With that said, JBL woofers handle too much mids to be treated with class D, unless it's of Hypex quality.
     
  17. SineDave

    SineDave Friend

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    Yes, good quality Class D obviously, as I said in my post.

    Class A bass reproduction is generally pretty poor compared to good Class D due to damping factor, as Hrodulf alluded to above. Until you have heard good Class D in this configuration, it's pretty silly to talk about the quality of mid-bass reproduction being inferior to the generally muddier/looser bass of Class A.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
  18. Xecuter

    Xecuter Brush and floss your amp twice a day

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    Brief update:

    Managed to get price to about 45k aud for the build. Nothing compromised so far.
    Build is scheduled to start at the End of April.
    We may need to delay a month or so because we are getting all the correct council approvals certification and that takes time. Also about another 4k for drafting, engineering and certifier.

    Had a brief interview with Dennis Foley who is going to suggest some potential internal wall and ceiling treatments which might reduce what I have to invest in acoustic treatment.
    Also commissioned Red spade audio re: room analysis

    As far as speakers go, pretty sold on the JBL 4367. I think I will start with a bi-amp option as suggested, it won't cost me much and gets me an idea where to go to next.

    Plans for LAAS may change, I'll do my best but my work commitments are intense this year.

    Hope you guys are having a great start to 2018.
     
  19. Xecuter

    Xecuter Brush and floss your amp twice a day

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    2021 Update.

    Hello friends!
    3 years later and the build begins.
    This is just a blog on the build process then onto the acoustic treatment phase.
    The original area we planned to renovate into the listening room we ditched because the poles that hold up the floor above pass through the room in a rather inconvenient way. Then covid hit, financial uncertainty set in and we decided to delay. Then due to building delays, material shortages it was only last week I signed the contract and the build begins this week.

    This will be a 6x3.75x2.4m room, it will be set up as a dedicated listening room while we are living here but will be usable as a guest room for resale, so it will have hardwood floors, 2 large windows, solid core door, air con (quiet system), acoustic insulation in the walls, normal gyprock, large storage room, desk, electrics for projector, separate dedicated circuits for the speakers, and digital stuff.
    It's definitely not going to be perfect, i can't make the room any taller, need to have windows (will cover these with ultra hd foam) but it will be much larger than my current room and better treated.

    I consulted with a number of experts on building and treating rooms, spent months reading about different techniques to offset the joists, float the floor and ceiling so they are disconnected, thought about not having any gyprock and decided it wasn't worth the gain to do any of this. At the end of the day this room needs to be usable as a bedroom for resale and I want it to match the existing style and design of the rest of the house. floating the floor and ceiling was going to cost another 5-10k and actually reduce room height so I decided preserving dimensions was a big priority.
    Interestingly a lot of home theater builders know very little about room design and treatment. I have been talking to a guy who did his pHD under Dr. Floyd Toole (his books and lectures are excellent). He has offered to send me equipment to measure the room once built and help with the internal treatment.
    Dennis Foley was of some use but there is definitely a strong sales drive in his consultation work. I wasn't interested in replacing the walls with his absorbers so didn't engage him to help with design.

    This is the new build:
    upload_2021-5-31_18-11-2.png

    We still have a bottle neck in the middle but it is a around 3metres wide. Not sure how I will position speakers.
    I've had them include building a desk and shelves between the poles on the left hand side.
    the rear of the room will have a walk in robe, i might extend this to 1.2m from .9m.

    This style was my goal:

    [​IMG]

    Current space:

    [​IMG]
    We are extending the joists and filling in this space, the skinny window will be a solid core door and the other window will be sealed off.

    [​IMG]
    Insulation pictured above. about 5m3 of 48kg/m3 glass wool, this is to help with bass treatment, reduce sound leaking in and out.
    I've used this glass wool in the room I currently use and it had a massive improvement in the FR under 4000hz

    I decided not to include the quote, it's not super interesting tbh. Cost of this project is about 55k aud
    i've budgeted another 5k to spend on more panels, a large rug, curtains and painting.

    Then I will keep saving for the ATC 100ASLT which i've settled on since hearing the jbl 4367 in a few rooms similar to mine.

    I'll keep the photos coming!
     
  20. jnak00

    jnak00 Friend

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    It's interesting to see the progression of your project over the last several years. Too bad about the timing, construction material pricing is insane right now (we're currently building a house - bad timing for us too)
     

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