Diffuse field equalized headphones recommendation

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by Darsus, Dec 9, 2015.

  1. Darsus

    Darsus Insatiable bowels - Member

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    Since I've had really, really pleasant expirience with both, Sennheiser HD250 Linear II and AKG K240 DF, what are some of diffuse field equalized headphones I have to try?
     
  2. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    ER4 has long been claimed to be tuned to the diffuse field reference.

    But hey, both the HD600 and HD800 claim to be diffuse field tuned in their manuals.....
     
  3. Darsus

    Darsus Insatiable bowels - Member

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    IEMs are not really my cup of tea, and HD800 are too expencive, but I would love to hear them tho. On the other hand, I'm planning to get HD600/650 (are they DF too?) sometime for sure, just struggle to find them here, not many shops where you can test headphones before buying, believe it or not.

    Thanks!
     
  4. briskly

    briskly Friend

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    Anyone can make a claim of neutrality or whatever. HD 600 and 650 are more diffuse field than the HD800 stock. I'm not sure how Sennheiser says the HD800 is DF neutral, since their previous electrostatics were much closer to it.

    K612 measures that way, it sorta sounds that way too.
     
  5. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    My meaning is that both of those headphones claim DF target curves, but sound nothing alike.

    Similarly, while Etymotic released the ER4B claiming 99.9999999% diffuse field accuracy, they eventually followed up with the ER4S and ER4P variants which are further away from that diffuse field curve, but more neutral and natural to many listeners ears. Obviously they got some feedback.

    It seems to me that diffuse field/ free field / Olive-Welti targets are all moving targets. Best to not put too much faith in them.
     
  6. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    1. Diffuse field target on dummy head with ears (Tyll's rig) is slightly OK.
    2. Diffuse field target on IEMs shoved into canals with microphone at the other end is appropriate.
    3. Olive-Welti on Tyll's rig = WTF bass galore.
    4. Sennheiser on their DF statements and provided FR graphs for HD800: No one but them knows WTF is going on.
    5. Lesson: Ignore all of it for now. Look at comparable graphs and note relative differences between them.
     
  7. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Olive-Welti makes some sense on Tyll's rig without the bass bump. But, even then, I think that bass portion is very headphone dependent. Some drivers seem to sound a bit better with a bass bump. Some worse. Assuming low distortion and all that other good stuff, I've heard some relatively bass-flat headphones sound lively and dynamic, and some sound thin and lean. Like a flat measuring T50RP driver is going to sound weak as hell compared to a larger, flat measuring planar driver.
     
  8. briskly

    briskly Friend

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    This is why we shouldn't have discussions in sidebars or chat boxes. For the sake of discussion about Olive-Welti headphone target.
    [​IMG]

    And the shelf EQ comparison.
    [​IMG]

    Sourced from Sean Olive's blog. A larger pool of listeners was drawn from for this study, with less control over the experience of the listeners.
    The bass is way overdone either way, and I would much sooner take a dead on diffuse field headphone over that bass.
     
  9. Darsus

    Darsus Insatiable bowels - Member

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    Eh... That's something I wanted to ask too, but decided to skip, because HD250 Linear II and AKG K240 DF sounded nothing alike, BUT, as someone who critically listens to music most of the time, I noticed that I could easily hear what is where listening to both of those, unlike on many headphones.I kinda didn't have that in your head annoying expirience listening to them, so, even with very different response, I thought there might be something with all the DF story behind them.


    Will definatelly check K612, I've read many reviews where people liked it more than K701.

    The measurements that I found most precise are, IMO, Golden Ears measurements, and they feature bass bump. Personally, I like slight bass bump, and believe that it gives natural, speaker like listening expirience. KSC75, even tho are low budget headphones, are perfect example, I just love how drums sound on them, maybe sometimes slightly bassier, but overall very natural and speaker like IMO. On the other hand, as Hands mentioned, it depends. Edit: +6.6 seems definitely more than I like and consider flat.

    P.S. Solderdude measurements are great too, but I don't know what method he uses, I'm complete noob when it comes to it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    f**k diffuse field or Olive-Welti or Golden Ears target. Just draw your own fricking curve. Seriously. There's a reason why I don't draw Merv's ideal curve on the plots here. All of it is bullshit if it doesn't sound right to you. The only authority on what sounds right to you is you, not Olive, not GoldenShowers, not Tyll, not any one of the 15 slightly different diffuse-field models, not me.

    The measurements are there as a tool to help you decide. The only requirement is that there be a sufficient body of measurements per measurement system where you can compare at least several different headphones that you have heard and calibrate to what seems right to you.

    All this stuff on DF, FF, HRTF is masturbatory academic bullshit.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
  11. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    Basically back in the 80s the Teutonic three (not Sodom, Kreator, and Destruction but AKG, Beyer, and Sennheiser) voiced headphones like diffuse field speakers (thinkLAT with ROOM REVERBERATIONS but bright as the sun up close with your ear to it) and just attached them to a headband as they were dumb. This is how Beyer can claim their headphones are "diffuse field voiced" and Sennheiser does the same with the HD 800. Sennheiser also claims the HD 580/600 were "diffuse field EQUALIZED" meaning they sound like a flat diffuse field speaker sounds at the position where you are supposed to be listening to it even though they are slightly brigher than neutral. The HD 650 is "Reference" for "modern listening" aka professional and consumers wanted a headphone they could listen to for hours at 80-90 db to "submerge themselves in the sound" as "a slight change in listening behavior was detected." Basically the HD 600 is too shouty for long term "reference" listening. Now the HD 800 is Sennheiser's "reference headphone" whatever the f**k that means as it's not really more faithful to monitor speakers than the 560, 580, 600, and 650 were so not really of a higher fidelity.
     
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    LOL, makes us wonder if the HD800 was a victim of too much academic study.
     
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Through the massive amount of research that has been undertaken on Changstar and SBAF, I would like to submit this as the Hands-Wunder-Field Curve as the sole and authoritative way that all headphones should be voiced... in the world of Hands... no make that for everyone.

    I drawed this in MS Paint. Pardon the imprecision for such a scholarly presentation.

    Hands.gif
     
  14. Darsus

    Darsus Insatiable bowels - Member

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    Also, it should be mentioned there is a difference between studio monitoring purpose flat, and enjoyable, home listening frequency response. If it's the 2nd, you can say f**k it and listen to whatever you want, but if it's the 1st case, that's where it becomes problematic. Solderdude mentioned me (beside HD6x0) DT250 250 ohm as most flat and studio monitor like headphones he has heard, any expiriences?
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    For me, they are one and the same - using the B&K target at loudspeaker listening position according to their AES paper around 1970.
     
  16. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    "Studio monitor" = tracking can. Tracking headphones are just to hear yourself. They just have to isolate well, be able to get loud, stay on the head, be comfortable for an hour, be cheap, and most importantly BE TANKS as they will be tossed around. The actual sound doesn't matter that much. There's a reason you see so many HD 280 and DT 770M (regular, non drummer DT 770s too in YERUP but the 280 having better QC and being cheaper has made it the new standard here despite it cracking every 4 years) The DT 250 isn't a studio can, it's a broadcast can. It sucks as a tracking can as it bleeds into mics and has horrific quality quality. I have one for sale for little more than the cost of shipping in the trading zone (would reduce to just the exact cost of shipping it priority to someone who would measure it). It sucks as a broadcast can as it doesn't stay on your head and costs more than an HD 25 variant. If you need a tracking can for vocalists to hear themselves or a broadcast headphone without clamp, the 7506 suffices. I went through three DT 250, 250 ohms hoping to get a closed HD 600 and I ended up with something less useful PortaPro.

    That being said people in studio control rooms don't mix on headphones either. Only bedroom rappers and EDM DJs do. The garage rock and basement black metal guys usually have cheap near-fields equalized with mics or decent hifi speakers equalized with mics as they have mics. Often the garage crowd will record at home and pay a professional to mix it for them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
  17. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Oh gawd, LOL! Bow down to the Hands-Wunder-Field Curve! Bwahaha! I'm dying over here.

    Jokes aside, that is actually pretty damn close to my ideal tastes. Only difference is I'm pretty OK with the HD650's bass as-is, and not sure I find the upper mids or lower treble all that out of line. Maybe a hint of glare somewhere in the lower treble? But even that is so source, amp, and track dependent that I don't care or don't notice. Still better in that regard than almost any other headphone.
     
  18. Darsus

    Darsus Insatiable bowels - Member

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    @Psalmanazar You misunderstood, I should emphasized that I meant for mixing, not recording purposes.
     
  19. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    Requirements for good studio tracking/monitoring can

    • Good response in midrange
    • Bandwidth below 100 and above 6k is optional
    • Sturdy so the "talent" doesn't break it
    Other than that it can be total crap. Reminds me when I first jumped on Head-Fi and people recommended the MDR-V6 because "that's what the pro's use brah!". I'd rather eat a can of Zyklon B than listen to that thing again.
     
  20. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    You forgot cheap. Stuff adds up when you buy a lot of them. Pros don't use V6/7506 though. That's the special one for the "talent" to use and enjoy the black dandruff when they complain that they can't hear themselves sing. Everyone else will be in comfy DT 770s.

    Mixing on headphones...
     

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