The Last Jedi Thread (with Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Random Thoughts' started by ultrabike, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    So much wrong in that scene.

    Likely that's what happens when you live the hermit life: Goats and Chickens.
     
  2. Ardacer

    Ardacer Friend

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    Forgot to say, it's amazing how this movie kills itself.


    The throneroom scene. AMAZING STUFF. Killing snoke just like that is bullshit imo, but ok whatever... Also maybe he'll come back somehow, who knows.. The fight and Reylo interaction/cooperation is superb.

    Aaaaaaand it's gone.

    Lol
     
  3. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I did love the fight, and all that sexual tension between Kilo Gram and Reynita.

    Do note Darth Maul came back. Ron Howard says so, and he is backed by the SW randomverse.
     
  4. Ardacer

    Ardacer Friend

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    That's OK, it's been already established in rebels and clone wars that he's alive at that point in time. I have no doubt they'll ruin him too. I can't wait to see how. I wonder what he's been drinking over there at Dathomir all this time.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  5. Ringingears

    Ringingears Honorary BFF

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    Well there goes my lunch. Dinners not looking promising either. :eek:
     
  6. BillOhio

    BillOhio Friend

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    Explains how Luke got so 'familiar' with that space walrus.
     
  7. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    1. Clear and consistent themes that form the backbone of the story

    2. Fully developed character arcs that show depth and growth

    3. Every setup has a payoff, every payoff is beautifully set up

    4. A cinematic style that is not beholden to previous films

    5. Subversion of the type of narrative expectations that often lead to cookie cutter filmmaking

    6. The homage to Kurosawa’s Rashomon

    7. Terrific peformances, especially from Driver and Hamill

    8. Luke’s characterization and arc is the deepest and most satisfying of any character in any Star Wars film

    9. Thrilling throne room fight

    10. A fitting send off for both Luke and Leia

    11. Delves deeper into the heart of and nature of the Force than any SW material outside of The Clone Wars/Rebels

    12. The Holdo Maneuver

    13. Leia using the Force

    14. Great balance of humor, drama, and action

    15. And many more!
     
  8. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    Oh and of course I loved Luke’s Force projection—it allowed him to save the Rebels without violence or giving Kylo Ren what he wanted most of all (to kill Luke himself). It’s completely in line with the Jedi he became in ROTJ.
     
  9. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Man, talk about overuse of non-lay-man's terms.
    1. The themes maybe clear on a given frame inside a particular episode, but they lack consistency across the episodes.
    2. Certain roles do have defined character arcs. But they are not consistent nor credible given their roles and loosely defined backstories.
    3. Every setup has a payoff, but every setup is forced.
    4. The cinematic style is very repetitive of previous films. From the dialog, to the over use of alien diversity. This is more evident in the first sequel movie, but carries on to TLJ. It is also inferior to previous movies given lower creativity standards in reconciling SW universe physics with real world physics.
    5. This is cookie cutter filmmaking. In fact, all of the SW movies are (The Hero With a Thousand Faces). More over, one could claim that the sequel is further subverted to the original trilogy.
    6. I fail to see the contradictory versions of the same incident that apparently Rashomon is known for. TLJ is simple.
    7. Hamil and Driver did well. Note Hamil AFAIK hated his role in TLJ.
    8. Luke's arc when down in TLJ. No longer do we see a serious and wise Luke like in ROTJ. We see a completely different person indeed, but devolved. Becoming more like Yoda would have made more sense, all with in Luke's personality.
    9. Throne room fight was great.
    10. Luke was send off horribly. Force projection was something that was pulled out of nowhere and inconsistent. I did not know a Jedi could die of Force overuse. AFAIK Leia was not send off.
    11. The nature of the Force became a caricature with the prequels (midichlorians). Episode IV and V were the best in this regard.
    12. Holdo's maneuver was a perfect example of God-Ex-Machina's usage. Basically a demonstration of the writer's inability to resolve the situation in a consistent way.
    13. Leia's abilities made no sense. AFAIK she was not properly trained, and her abilities were not w/o bound like that.
    14. Humor was too obvious and expected. Drama was overdone. Action was good.
    15. Not much more IMO.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  10. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Again, did not know a Jedi could die of Force overuse and exhaustion.

    I rather like ESB:

    Luke: "I don't. I don't believe it."
    Yoda: "That, is why you failed."

    Never was there a situation were Yoda would warn Luke to take it easy.

    Luke: "I don't. I don't believe it."
    Yoda: "Take it easy you must young one. Kill yourself from Force exhaustion you should not."
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  11. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    Jeez, so now you’re bothered by the way I communicate too? We use non laymen’s terms all the time for different discussions, I don’t see why film or storytelling should be any different.

    1. The episodes of this new series aren’t written and directed by one person, so you’re right that the themes aren’t consistent across episodes. That however is not a fault of TLJ.

    2. I don’t see what is not credible or consistent in the arcs for Rey, Finn, Poe, Rose, Kylo, or Luke. Rey needed to learn to be confident within herself because she is good enough as she is, and does not need an important parent to be an important person. Poe needs to learn how to lead and strategize instead of being headstrong and impulsive. Finn needs to learn to be part of something bigger than himself, to fight for a cause because he believes in it. Rose needs to learn the self confidence to be a hero instead of marginalizing herself as a side player. Kylo has to make the choice between dark and light, and Luke has to come to grips with his failures. What is inconsistent or not credible about those things?

    3. Every setup is forced? Every single one? So is every setup for every fictional movie ever, because these characters and situations don’t exist until somebody writes them. You’ll have to be more specific about which setups you found forced and why for me to address them. If you mean the Holdo/Poe conflict, Holdo is not under obligation to tell anything to a reckless captain who got tons of people killed and got demoted.

    4. The cinematography and editing are very different from previous films. I’m not sure what you mean by “over use of alien diversity”. The physics in Star Wars has never conformed to real world physics because the movies would be a lot less interesting if they did. As long as the physics make intrinsic sense to the audience, and IMO TLJ does nothing wrong in that regard, it’s all good.

    5. The filmmaking is only cookie cutter in that it’s a three act story within the Star Wars universe. Throughout the film Johnson sets us up to expect things because of assumed narrative expectations that most audiences have, and then delivers something different.

    6. It’s not as in depth as Rashomon, but the differing Luke/Kylo retelling of Ben’s turn is a clear homage to Rashomon, just as A New Hope was a clear homage to The Hidden Castle.

    7. Hamill disagreed with Johnson’s take on Luke during filming and expressed that to the press, but then rescinded those comments when he saw the final cut.

    8. Luke is a man in a deep depression because of his failure with Ben. His characterization is totally in line with that and when he does return it’s triumphant and in line with the Jedi he became in ROTJ.

    9. Yay! We agree

    10. When Kylo and Rey first connect, Kylo says, “You can’t be doing this, the effort would kill you.” So it is set up. You can also Luke at it as Luke becoming one with the Force voluntarily as he’s finally come to a place of peace. Leia didn’t get an official send off but her final scene with Luke is as good as we’re going to get given that Carrie Fisher passed away.

    11. TLJ said nothing about midichlorians and IMO brought the idea of the Force back to what it was in episodes IV and V, but deepened the ideas in them.

    12. Holdo’s maneuver is not a deus ex machina. There is no salvation from the outside that comes in at the last minute and saves everyone. Holdo makes a desperate move using the only resource she has and even then it only buys the Rebels some time to get to the planet’s surface. Luke’s appearance feels more like a deus ex machina as he does show up at the last minute to save everyone but the whole film has been building up to that.

    13. We don’t know to what extent she was trained but it seemed more like a survival reflex to me.

    14. Disagree about the humor and drama.

    15. Thanks for taking the time to discuss. We clearly disagree on a lot but I appreciate the dialogue.
     
  12. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    If no one can ever introduce anything new beyond what was established in ANH and ESB, then there’s probably no point in making new movies. And on top of it, it made narrative sense for that power to be so taxing on Luke that it drains his energy to the point of death, otherwise there’d be a takeout Jedi projection in every movie and TV show from here on out. Johnson smartly built in consequences to Luke’s action.
     
  13. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Or maybe the Jedi projection stuff should be avoided all together. It was not a good idea.

    A Jedi is not bound by the Force, but by it's ability to wield it. A Jedi does not die from Force exhaustion. A Jedi can do or cannot based on his command of the Force which grows as the Jedi evolves. At least that's kind of what I got from Yoda in the previous episodes.

    A director and a script writer for a sequel or prequel can expand and grow what was set down before. It cannot take the liberty to completely violate and rewrite what was implied in previous works. Go start another franchise then.
     
  14. Boops

    Boops Friend

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    I think it’s a valid reading of what we saw that:

    A. Projection made Luke hella tired
    B. Having saved the rebels, earned some redemption, and the texts destroyed, his time was was complete
    C. He peaced out from the physical world to become one with the force and/or a ghost
     
  15. Boops

    Boops Friend

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    Props for this concise description of all of the arcs of the major characters. This movie is extremely clear and explicit about what all these characters want, what they need, and how they change from beginning to end.
     
  16. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Having several directors and writers makes it difficult to write a coherent series.

    The execution is not credible.

    I agree that Poe is a dangerous looser. Ask yourself what would Patton do? Shoot Poe for treason right there and carry on.

    You mean like dropping bombs at zero gravity (you did sea Leia Poppins floating around).

    You mean different like the Starkiller base?

    And that 5 min instance of two characters perspective is homage to Rashomon? OK.

    Life goes on man.

    Man I take Obi-Wan-Kenobi dealing with Vader anyday to that depression story.

    Yup. That girl can swing a mean sword. So can Kylo when he is not behaving like a bitch.

    Kylo < Yoda.

    I like Yoda's more boundless understanding of the Force. The implied story also predates TLJ.

    That was indeed good. Except for the "the effort would kill your" crap. That was definitively not in line with IV and V.

    The last minute I-just-came-up-with-it-solution kamikaze light speed deal is deus ex machina. And yes, Luke's appearance is also a deus ex machine.

    That was a damned all-powerful survival reflex man.

    OK.

    :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  17. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Yup. It just fails a bit in how the characters go about it.
     
  18. BillOhio

    BillOhio Friend

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    If the second movie doesn't jive with the first movie, that's the fault of whoever made the second movie.

    You don't just fugging ignore the first movie and dispose of it.

    You also don't just fugging ignore the established universe the way Rian Johnson did again and again.
     
  19. Boops

    Boops Friend

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    I’m sorry to do this, but what exactly doesn’t jive with the previous movie? Feel free to ignore this if we’ve already covered it. I forgot in all the back and forth about what people thought was stoopid *within* TLJ.
     
  20. BillOhio

    BillOhio Friend

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    Snoke disposed of after being built up
    Phasma disposed of after being built up
    Mystery of Rey's heritage disposed of
    Hux going from fascist regime leader in TFA to asinine bumbling boob in TLJ
    Po going from 'Best Pilot in the Resistance' in TFA to asinine bumbling boob in TLJ

    Bonus:
    Yoda going from extremely somber character for FIVE FUGGING MOVIES* to a crank in TLJ

    Leah using the force 1 time in 5 movies and it's the most powerful manifestation we'd ever seen, until Luke an hour later

    Weaponized light speed rendering every previous space battle as moot

    *He acted like a crank for 3 minutes in ESB as a test of Luke. Yoda was never actually a cackling crank.
     

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