Pictures of your speaker system

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by Cspirou, Nov 6, 2015.

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  1. Kernel Kurtz

    Kernel Kurtz Friend

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    Wasn't really my intention. Simply trying to point out that even inefficient absorption can be beneficial.

    Yes, I have all of my test data saved on my laptop. A ridiculous amount spanning gear changes as well as room changes and not as organized as I would like but this should be easy enough. I already know the result will be basically the same but I will follow up shortly.

    Bass resolution. Went from boomy, muddy bass to hearing bass lines we never even knew existed. Picking on the strings of bass lines we never even knew existed. I'm not shitting you here. Maybe I am an edge case but I don't need graphs to know what I hear. They simply quantify my subjective opinion.

    I'm not threatened, and my apologies if you think I am being an ass. It's your place and I'm not wanting to piss on your carpet, I have greatest respect for everyone here. Just saying what I think. That seems to be encouraged here.

    Also, I think one of my main points was my treatments are certainly not wife friendly. They are pretty intrusive actually. That is probably what makes them effective.

    I'll agree anything that moves more air is better. Subject to all the limitations above. :)
     
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    This is what I want to hear. Your subjective opinion, not graphs, unless you are super well versed in them. I can pick graphs apart all day.

    For what you mentioned, I would look at both FR and CSD between 100Hz and 500Hz. Maybe even higher. Concentrate on FR first.

    Distortion too if possible from 50Hz to 300Hz. Mostly attributable to drivers, but sometimes things shake in the room.

    Did you do anything else, like move the speakers away from the wall, or was this all room treatments?
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
  3. Kernel Kurtz

    Kernel Kurtz Friend

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    Thanks. I'm not pretending to be an REW expert here, but when I make changes I can hear, and I can take measurements that actually seem to reflect the changes I can hear, I consider that useful.

    And yeah, only treatments. Lots of them for sure, but I have measurements every step of the way there too.
     
  4. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    I bought a big chunk of wool for getting rid of the floor bounce when measuring speakers outdoors. I tried putting it in my room to see what's the biggest effect it can have on the 42Hz room mode (which is the most dominant in my room, the 2nd axial length mode). I kept it in its plastic bag, but I doubt that would change much. This is a 80cm high, 60cm in diameter cylinder of wool, so it's pretty big. The flow resistivity is specified as 1.7 kPa*s/m² which according to the porous absorber calculator should be pretty good for a basstrap.
    In the best position I got about 1db less at 42Hz, going from a 8db to a 7db peak at my listening position and 1.2db more at 72Hz. This is with the mic at the same position and simply positioning and removing the "absorber", measurements taken less than 5 minutes apart. Decay seemed to be a tiny bit quicker, too.
    Still. 1db isn't bad and the difference was definitely audible, I just wouldn't expect miracles. I plan on keeping the wool under my bed once I find a good way to store it so that I can quickly remove it for its main purpose. For now it's in storage, though.

    However the difference is far less than the difference between OB speakers and speakers that are omnidirectional in the bass or the difference betwen different listening positions. In the living room (which is the same length as my room) where my dad has his floorstanders (front ported) close to the back wall and sits at almost half the room length the 42Hz room mode is almost 18db in the right channel (not as much in the left channel). In 60ms it's 10db down in my room, but just 5db down in the living room. That is a massive difference, I'll tell you that much.

    Absorbers that work for bass frequencies need to be extremely thick and I think even very good studios will have around 10db room modes (dip to peak) in the bass. That's just the way it is with speakers. Personally I'm not too much a fan of digital room correction, either, at least when there are other options. But for 200Hz+ absorbers can be nice (and even then you'd probably need 10cm thickness for it to have some effect). Or you can build lots of helmholtz resonators with a big volume or have a room with a funky shape. Speakers can have really good bass despite not so nice looking FR curves.
     
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    We haven't seen any evidence of such measurements yet. Again, not doubting what you hear or that there are measurement differences. But you can't whip up CSD measurements with different vertical ranges and say that there are changes. That's measurement manipulation (unintentional in your case),but still hits a nerve with me.*

    Without knowing more about your bass traps (or treatments), I highly doubt we would see anything significant below 100Hz. In any event, issues with blurry bass string articulation or muddiness will be found in the higher bass and low mids. It's not about being an REW expert. REW is just a tool, like a screwdriver, a hammer, or DMM. It's about being super anal retentive, being able to consistently repeat with the same results, being relentless in the pursuit of patterns that might correlate to the subjective experience, and then presenting data in a consistent and clear manner.

    --

    *This "marketing" CSD below is what prompted me to eventually start Changstar. I puked when I saw it.
    LCD2-Waterfall-1W-NF.jpg

    This is what I got:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
  6. leafy

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    Current setup with Yaggdrasil/Jotumheim/Vidar and a pair of LS50. I haven't decided whether I want a subwoofer yet. And the speaker stands.....my friend promised to give me a pair but it hasn't happened yet.
     
  7. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    There is an instant room treatment that I can apply to anybody's room if they use a sofa (or even an armchair) at the listening position: sit on the floor with the sofa behind me, rather than on the sofa with the wall behind me. It almost always makes a difference that I can hear, and I almost always choose to stay on the floor. So I conclude that this simple stuff makes a difference. Also, the owners seldom bother to try it!

    I tend to be dismissive of the effects of thin mats, on floors or walls: sound is just more durable than that! But, without personal before/after experience, better I say sceptical rather than dismissive!

    I am very sceptical of those who apply any sort of correction to a room without first removing or fixing all the potentially vibrating items. Whereas a messy shelf full of books may be an effective diffuser, even the tidiest shelf of china ornaments is going to be singing along. Resonance is your enemy; blutack is your friend.

    It's amazing what resonates. Actually, almost everything given half a chance. I keep a small, plastic snack box (Sesame Balls) to eat in concerts: it vibrates with the music.
     
  8. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    Generally in most residential rooms there are two things which muck up any serious speaker listening.

    1. Bass sucks because of boundary gain and/or placement in regard to pressure nodes.
    2. Upper mids suck because reverb trails are too long and denser recordings turn into roaring mush.

    So, what can you do?

    1. EQ to counter boundary gain. To do this properly a measurement mic helps a lot.
    2. Tweak positioning to counter especially troublesome modes. Use multi-sub management to iron out nulls. Again - having a mic helps a bunch.
    3. Upper mid stuff is rather short wavelength so you can fight it with furniture -
    a) Have a rug on the floor, the thicker the better
    b) Have wallpaper on the walls
    c) Have bookshelves (with books) or some furniture on primary reflection points at side-walls
    d) Have thick blinds on windows, the heavier the fabric the better (large naked glass surfaces suck Arsch)
    e) Have large puffy sofa-like furniture which can eat up a lot of stray sounds flying around

    Extra points if your dry-wall is able to flex, but doesn't rattle. Large walls with flexing surfaces will actually absorb bass/sub-bass.

    The problem is that a lot of this goes against contemporary minimalist Scandinavian interior, so more often than not modern rooms will ring like a mofo.
     
  9. Kernel Kurtz

    Kernel Kurtz Friend

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    I will post some more graphs scaled the same a bit later today, should I continue to put them here? I know I have posted some room pics already but can't remember what thread that was. I'll have a look for those too.

    The low E on a bass guitar is around 41Hz, and the low B on an extended bass is 33Hz. I do realize that muddiness probably comes from harmonics further up, but the sonic improvements still manifest themselves down pretty low.

    It's pretty tough to make things completely repeatable with measurements taken over long periods of time. Even using the pink noise generator to set the attenuation before a set of measurements is going to have some error from run to run. What I am looking for when I use these tools is trends, not absolute numbers. In that regard I do think it is possible to look at two graphs that are not scaled identically and still spot differences.
     
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    You are the one who posted your plots to back yourself up, taking the objective angle, and citing my appreciation of measurements.

    I'm simply calling it that I don't see any differences in the plots that you posted (in the areas that could comparable) that couldn't be attributed to environmental or random factors. If you want to post plots, be prepared to back yourself up. Heck, I get challenged on my plots by the regulars and often I have to go back and explain myself. This isn't HF where a bunch of dummies nod their heads in agreement just because a fancy plot is posted.

    All I hear is arguing, citing of Weiners, but no data and no specifics on these mysterious "intrusive" room treatments. Let's see the data. Let's see the room treatments. You already have the before and after impulse responses. It should take no more than 5 minutes to generate a full set of before after FR, CSD, and distortion plots. If you have the data, then post it. Talk is cheap.

    Actually, post the impulses responses, and let me or @ultrabike process them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
  11. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    Had to turn the speakers on their sides to make room for the screen. Soundstage is a bit diagonal thanks to the asymmetrical cabinets, but IDGAF. Scooted them up right to the ledge of the shelf and honestly they sound great - better than the other configurations I've tried.

    These L55s have scored me 4 noise complaints from my upstairs neighbor in the last 6 months, but worth it every time. Room opens up quite a bit on both sides, with seating being my bed, which also functions as a couch. Room treatments are 2 small shaggy area rugs and a "coffee table" at knee level.

    Living in the living room of a small 1-bedroom apartment isn't so bad with a setup like this.

    Awful photo quality but oh well.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
  12. westermac

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    Nice to see some discussion of room treatment. Measuring and treating my space has definitely been an eye-opening experience, but it can be tempting to fixate on the details and become the audio equivalent of a pixel-peeper. Don't fall into that trap (no pun intended).

    Not much to add to what's been said, other than to reiterate that thoughtful placement and listening positioning can go a long way toward mitigating inherent room issues (many of which wouldn't be practically correctable anyway). Unless you're listening in a state of the art control room, your room isn't neutral. Whatever. You still have some neutral-ish placement and positioning options at your disposal.

    Or if you're married, hopefully you followed Marv's advice and married someone who understands you. Ha. Audio advice of the year.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
  13. leafy

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    I second this method, my theory is that this brings your ears onto the same plane with the drivers which is making the difference. This is very pronounced in my setup as I have a coaxial driver speaker, aligning my ears with the center of the tweeters make it sound like listening to gigantic headphones with a huge soundstage. It's far more immersive compared to listening sitting on the couch or behind the couch, where it sounds more concert hall like.
     
  14. mscott58

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    The first thing that came to mind was "that's the set-up Mad Max would have"...
     
  15. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    The last time I tried this, it was with a pair of large floor standers. Theoretically, I was putting my ears lower than they "should" have been. But yes, I think there are two or three things involved:

    1. The absorption behind and protection from the rear reflections.
    2. Height of the ear different relative to drivers.

    Maybe other factors, eg floor reflections, involved too.
     
  16. Kernel Kurtz

    Kernel Kurtz Friend

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    K, I'll attach a couple files, one bare room and one with traps. I have only concerned myself with bass below 300Hz, so these are not full spectrum. I'm totally good with the mid and upper frequency performance and the bass traps seem to make less difference to it anyway.

    Traps are 2x4'x4" Rockwool panels. There were 4 of them when the REW file was made, there are now 6 but I have not done any new measurements. I've shortened the ones adjacent to the Maggies a bit since as they were compressing my soundstage a bit too much. Also some smaller panels on some larger right angles. And the little triangular ones behind the TV make a huge difference that does not show in the measurements at all.

    [​IMG]
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  17. enginerd

    enginerd New

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    Just curious why you don't have room treatment directly behind the maggies. they are pretty notorious for needing to be a significant distance out from the wall since they are dipole or you end up with the backwave interfering significantly with the forward firing wave at lower frequencies. Treatment directly behind would help that. There were even serious recommendations in magnepan circles of using ficus trees behind maggies for that purpose (not sure what plant you have in the picture).
     
  18. zonto

    zonto Friend

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    Most Maggie diehards reported liking diffusion, not absorption, behind the speakers (if anything) because absorption apparently killed most of the speaker's magic/spaciousness. Hence the ficus trees, as a more WAF-focused form of diffusion. I've never had anything behind my Maggies.

    Relatedly, I have this article bookmarked, and someone on SBAF may have shared it a while ago, but thought it relevant to the discussion: https://sonicscoop.com/2017/12/14/t...t-tip-speaker-manuals-get-completely-wrong/2/

     
  19. Kernel Kurtz

    Kernel Kurtz Friend

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    If that back wall was completely open, I agree some treatments behind the speakers would probably be required given they are so close. I've tried it. I still have rockwool panels leftover, but it really does kill a lot of what makes the dipoles enjoyable. Or it might be just because I am used to it, since the Maggies replaced a pair of Definitve Technologies bipolars before them. Given they are kind of closed in to begin with I don't think the additional damping is needed. YMMV.

    12 feet from the back wall LOL. Room is only 14 feet wide. I've spent many, many hours playing with speaker positions. It's all a compromise of course, but I think where it is is pretty much the best (for me). I have plenty of hand drawn maps with various distances and opinions. They are now in the spot I have marked on the carpet with tape so I can put them back exactly there. If I move the Maggies out further, then I have to move the subs out further because otherwise they will be behind the panels. And moving the subs out further hurts the bass. I find the relationship between the subs and the Maggies is more important than the relationship between the Maggies and the wall. A lot of people think traditional subs don't blend well with planars. I'm actually quite happy with how it has worked out.

    Of course, I'm effectively listening to them in nearfield in such a small room. Some people hate planars in nearfield. Again YMMV.
     
  20. restrav3

    restrav3 Likes Audio-GD

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    2nd system. fm radio, vinyl and spdif for internet radio via allo digione like a f'ing boss
    [​IMG]
     

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