Campfire Audio Andromeda Review: Holy Cow, This is a Dream, Awesomesauce!

Discussion in 'IEMs and Portable Gear' started by purr1n, May 13, 2016.

  1. animus

    animus Almost "Made"

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    Lack of subbass extension is a pretty common criticism of BA woofers in general actually. It's a mixture of lack of tactile slam from them as well as the perception that they roll off, even when they don't on measurements. Someone used to DD bass is probably going to think that any BA IEM thrown their way has shit for bass, not just for extension reasons but timbre and transients as well.

    My personal opinion is that regarding IEMs there is a bit of a fundamental disconnect between the tastes of the older SBAF crowd and the younger Discord/chatgroup crowd. I think it's simply down to what people are used to; a lot of the former are used to the flat pinna gain and relatively low bass of the Andro (2 ohm source), while a lot of the latter like DF-esque or PP8-esque pinna comps and have high tolerance for bass. You could say it's due to a generational difference in opinion or due to different pinna gain preferences, but ultimately I think it's a bit of an irreconcilable difference that exists.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  2. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    I know that there's an FR explanation somewhere but I've always thought of "hollow" as a combination of "lacking body" in both a tonal balance sense and imaging body sense, almost veering into "nasal"-sounding but not quite getting there, or the difference between head voice and falsetto. For example, among the relative strengths and weaknesses between the two the HE4XX is a bit hollow-sounding compared to HD600, in my opinion and with my gear.

    I feel like I'm making analogies for taste using colour right now. Ick.

    Agreed on the Andros, I never thought them spacious sounding whereas the Solaris is ridiculously so, comparable even to circumaural open-backed headphones that I've tried. I wasn't kidding when I said the Solaris seriously made me consider giving up full-size headphones in light of the convenience factor and how it sounded.

    Also, might it be that there's some conflating sub-bass extension and sub-bass impact? Cuz that's a distinction it took ages for me to understand and that I've seen some reviews online screw up. Solaris has good extension and rumble, HE1kv2 and LCD-X have great extension but fluffy impact throughout the frequency spectrum (impressions only relevant on the systems I've heard them out of and compared to other gear in my experience— I want to make this clear haha).

    Dafuq are you calling old???
     
  3. animus

    animus Almost "Made"

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    I generally notice that the users on this site tend to be in their 30s or older, while the second group tends to be in their 20s, if not younger. Hell, I know some 14 year olds in the Discord IEM community. Outliers exist, of course, but generalizations for sake of describing a group are, well, generalizations.
     
  4. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    My outrage was feigned for the sake of humour :))
     
  5. animus

    animus Almost "Made"

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    Geez, maybe I should stop talking about demographics and go check how out of touch I am first.
     
  6. mscott58

    mscott58 Friend

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    Old = >30? Dang
     
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    SBAF members are sophisticated enough to understand actual lack of sub bass extension vs bass decay and the differences between typical BA and DD bass characteristics. It's not up to SBAF to understand to cater to the lowest common denominator of (not) understanding. There's the expectation of new and old members alike to call it for what it should be called, or to learn how. It's not a matter of who is wrong or right in the use of words or definitions. It's a matter of facilitating effective communication. Nothing is worse than a Darmok and Picard situation on an audio related site.

    In the case of @Dhruvmeena96, no one here knows what he actually means. I've heard people mistakenly describe sub and low bass as 70Hz or anything with a +15db bass shelf as lacking sub bass. This is why we encourage newcomers to get a lay of the land first. Back and forth random chit-chat you know. It's so that we can understand where each other is coming from.

    I've even seen shit like people at meets listening to specific recordings which were shitty masters only to publicly pronounce that a system sounded bad. One case specifically was setup which was loaded with SACD rips (because of course we all know that SACD / DSD is best - NOT!) and one person got up and announced that the system sounded thin and bright. I saw that he was listening to and told him: try another track. Those specific masters are thin and bright - avoid them).

    Here's an example that I caught where a rep was showing off a $50k electrostatic system: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...ul-simon-diamonds-on-the-music-analysis.4050/

    I'd argue with PP8 vs. Andro, is more a matter of cocha gain as opposed to pinna gain (and also PP8 having less lower mids and below).

    Analysis here. BLU = Andro. YLW = PP8.
    [​IMG]

    There could be other reasons for this "fundamental disconnect". As they say, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.
    1. The first is what I would attribute to "Asian IEM weirdos" in Asian countries who have become accustomed to the genre of "female vocal" and just love that 2k-4kHz region (and even higher up) cranked up 11. Oh, I've been out to shops in Taiwan and Sydney to observe many a young-ling dreamily listen to the beautiful rendition of female vocals with IEMs that would make my brain explode.
    2. Kids with hearing damage (typically manifests between 4-6kHz) from listening to IEMs or buds for most of their life and not realized the highs SPLs they were listening under.
    3. People with experience with speakers. Most speaker designs have an xover between 2kHz-3kHz. What's typical is that the lower frequency driver will start to beam just under the xover frequency, thus resulting in a dip in the frequency response off-axis.
    4. People who listen to naturally mic'd recordings recorded in reverberant venues. This means classical big or small, maybe jazz, big band, etc. The BBC dip that some speaker designs employ.
    5. The malign influence of Sean Olive and his consumer oriented Harmon target curves, e.g. rtings, Oratory, etc.
    6. Note that 3 and 4 could coincide with the under / over 30 thing. All modern humans are stupid under 30. I can confidently say that I was a stupid piece of shit who thought I knew it all when I was under 30. Although 3 could coincide with people who live in the USA (bigger spaces) vs Asian (no space unless you son of rich uncle).
    7. Totally agree that the difference is irreconcilable, although IEMs that straddle the line like the Drop JVC HA-FD-1X are liked by both "camps" if there really were such a thing (which truthfully, I don't believe it).
    Ultimately, measurements bear this stuff out. No one on SBAF really cares unless one barges to say that one way is truth because he was lectured to by an IEM guru. I count folks on both camps as friends, many have visited my home, and I haven't seen any correlation of "camp" with age.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2020
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    30 is an oddball cutoff for useful demographics info, so let's say 34.

    The 18-34 age bracket accounts for 40% of SBAF users per site analytics (yes, I do this stuff). The number of young members is not insignificant. What matters most of course is maturity level. As the banner says, regardless of age, one must be mentally younger than 9 years old to play here.
     
  9. animus

    animus Almost "Made"

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    Yeah, a lack of transparency regarding definitions of terminology, setup used in auditioning and music collection is an issue. Pretty hard to take reviews or impressions seriously if someone is known to grossly misuse terminology and flings random buzzwords around because they think it sounds cool. Too much of that kind of shit on Head-fi where audiophile catchphrases are interspersed between horrifically mangled and broken sentences of English that require several rereads to decipher.

    1. This is a thing for sure. Most of them stick in their own communities clustered in Discords and text messages and other small niche groups, but I won't deny their existence.
    2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't hearing loss in that range generally manifest as an increased hearing noise floor as opposed to a lack of sensitivity? Or is it both?
    3. Yeah, this is exacerbated by the fact that most of the people in point 1 don't really use speakers much. Creates a pretty clear divide between the two groups.
    4. Again as above. Music taste seems to be a pretty decisive factor here, pretty much all of the types who listen to "shrill weeb music" (as I'd personally describe it) despise the Andromeda. Not to say that the two are the same group of course, but there's an overlap there.
    5. Funnily enough, while we're on this topic, I'd say most people who are into weebshit actually dislike the IE Harman curve. The IE in particular seems to be universally disliked to the point that not even reddit likes it, and they absolutely love the OE target too.
    6. 3 coincides with both that and the fact that most people living in Asia don't really spend a lot of time at home. Portable audio is much more feasible in this regard. Even the headphone scene in Singapore is pretty dismal for this reason, good luck easily trying any DAC not made by Questyle or Cayin.
    7. FDX1 has its appeal because the pinna boost isn't quite as emphasized in practice as it is on paper. It's really weird. Consider the following:
    [​IMG]
    Yeah, they're really that close. But in this case, I'd argue that the blue filter FDX1 doesn't have enough pinna compensation (just a hair less than I'd like, and maybe slightly too laidback of a presentation), while the PP8 honestly has too much. And it seems like the PP8 isn't the outlier here. Two other IEMs with a similar pinna curve would be the PEARS SH3 and the Kumitate Sirius, and I'd say the same about both as I would the PP8. There seems to be some form of inconsistency in tonality that's not showing up in the measurements, and I'm really curious as to why. Possible reasons:
    1. DD vs BA. Super obvious, I know.
    2. FDX1's internals having no waveguide, vs the BA IEMs all being traditionally tubed. I think this makes more of a difference on sound than people realize. Tubed stuff generally seems to be upfront and closed in, while stuff that uses more of an acoustic chamber based design is usually spacious and diffuse.
    At the end of the day though, I do think that it just boils down to accepting that there's a clear and concise difference in taste, and perhaps understanding why is an interesting study, but it mostly comes down to accepting it.

    Perhaps I shouldn't have included age into it. The point was more to illustrate how the regulars here do tend to be of a different age, have different tastes and backgrounds, and of course different opinions in IEMs, as opposed to the Discord crowd which is generally 14-25 years old, doesn't do speakers much, and doesn't really listen to the music that this site prefers.
     
  10. imackler

    imackler Key Lime Pie Infected Aberdeen Wings Spy

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    This may be such a lame question, but after searching all the terms I can think of, is there a semi-practical way to add a couple ohms resistance to a 0 output impedance source? Whether it's a length of cable, a change of cable, an extender, a jack, etc. It seems like there should be some, slightly cumbersome way to make your near 0 OI amp be an ideal match for the Andromeda. Of course, this may be crazy talk, but I'm curious. Thanks!
     
  11. jexby

    jexby Posole Prince

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    iFi IEMatch has two different settings which have slightly different OIs. let me dig up specs and edit this message a bit later.
     
  12. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Evil Dr. Shultz‎

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    Per the manual:

    • Input Impedance: > 16 Ohm
    • Output Impedance: < 2.5 Ohms (High-Sensitivity)
    < 1 Ohms (Ultra-Sensitivity)

    Edit: I prefer High over Ultra for Andros
     
  13. fastfwd

    fastfwd Friend

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    Yes, just add a 1.8- or 2.2-ohm resistor in series with the source. You can make an adapter that'll do that for your Andromedas:

    I assume that your Andro cable is terminated with a 3.5mm TRS plug. Buy two quarter-watt 2.2-ohm 1% resistors (like these from Mouser), one 3.5mm female jack and one 3.5mm male plug (e.g., from this list at Mouser), and some wire and heatshrink tubing and solder and stuff.

    The adapter is just a straight-across connection between female and male -- T to T, R to R, S to S -- but with one resistor connected inline between T and T, and one connected inline between R and R. So cut the resistor leads down to some manageable length, and then -- with heatshrink to insulate it from the other contacts -- solder one end of a resistor to the male plug's T contact, then wire the other end of that resistor to the female jack's T. Do the same with the R, then just wire male S directly to female S. If you're lucky, the resistors will fit entirely within and be hidden by the male plug's cover.

    Braiding, wrapping, or strain-relieving the wire is optional; marking the adapter so you don't forget that it contains those resistors is mandatory.

    Edit: Or just buy an IEMatch, as suggested above. That's what I did, too.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  14. Ox Cart

    Ox Cart Facebook Friend

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    If @imackler doesn't want to deal with soldering, (s)he can do what I did and use two of these screw terminal female connectors. You'll need two resistors for the L/R channels and a little insulated hookup wire for the ground connection. Together with an assortment of resistors, this made it easy for me to experiment with different resistances. Once I found the one I liked, I just wrapped the whole thing with some electrical tape. The result can be seen in this video.
     
  15. misf1t

    misf1t New

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    Hello. I am new here, running the andromeda green with DX160. Using a mixed silver/copper cable and 4.4 out. I find the sound to be too dark, bassy and lacking sparkle. This is probably due to the low output impedance of 0.4ohms. During this crisis moment, I cant change dap or the cable, since I live in Bangladesh. Is there any bypass/eq setting that I could try to reduce mid bass and increase treble? Thank you.
     
  16. gepardcv

    gepardcv Almost "Made"

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    I use the following EQ settings (RME ADI-2 DAC) with the Andromeda:

    band 1: peak filter, +3.0, 20Hz, Q 0.5
    band 2: +1.5, 63Hz, Q 0.9
    band 3: -3.0, 210Hz, Q 0.6
    band 4: +2.5, 2.9kHz, Q 2.4
    band 5: +2.0, 4.9kHz, Q 0.9

    I derived these from playing with AutoEq and turning down some of the automatic recommendations a lot.
     
  17. imackler

    imackler Key Lime Pie Infected Aberdeen Wings Spy

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  18. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    For Andromeda, the same thing holds true. Higher OI makes it brighter.

    I've also experienced something similar with Solaris... though to a much lesser degree than Andromeda.

    With Andromeda, ZX2 has a combination of high OI (should be bright) but with a warmpoo sound that counters the brightness, and so it's very enjoyable. Still a legendary combo IMHO. Hard to top.

    I'm looking forward to learn how Ara will behave.
     
  19. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

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    This is relative FR, not the Andromeda's actual response; but nonetheless you can see the effect.

    More problematic for higher OI sources than the Ara IMO, because while both curves are c. 5x different peak to trough, the Andromeda one peaks in the 7-8k region whereas the Ara one doesn't get there until 20k, being only c. 3x 'baseline' at 10k.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    @Biodegraded thanks for the graph above. However I feel it doesn't quite show how massive the difference in sound really is. (The more I look at it, the more it does. +3dB for basically the whole range past 2kHz for 3.5 Ohms is huge.)

    Another way to look at it is that Andromeda with higher OI isn't too far off from the UERM in FR, as I measured here. Note I used different tips and insertion depth for the measurements, which makes stuff past 5kHz look different. Near-Zero OI (Leckerton UHA-6smkII) with foam tips and the Rag SE (supposedly 3.3 Ohm or so) with silicone tips IIRC. From a near-zero OI the Andromeda's tuning below 2kHz reminded me more of the Apple BA IEM (for those who have heard it), but of course it's much closer to my preferred target past 2kHz. With an even higher OI than the Rag SE of course it becomes even brighter!
     

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