BWC (Big Woofer Club): Why Big Woofers Matter

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by nishan99, Aug 5, 2020.

  1. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    Which of the two will be faster on a 1/4 mile which needs to be done exactly in a minute?
     
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    This is super open ended. What do you want to do? What's the concept?
     
  3. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    Gonna be a lot harder getting a giant slug to hit exactly 1 minute than something lightweight. Even then, it's not a straight line. Music is complex. Not just a single sine wave. There's acceleration and braking.
     
  4. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    And it's up to the crossover to divide the complex signal to the drivers best suited for the job.

    P.S. For the DIY project you can take inspiration from something like this - http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Faital-3WC-15.htm
     
  5. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    Very much agreed.

    Therefore I think RobS should stop at this point as he doesn't seem to have enough experience from the both worlds. Speakers engineers/gurus/whoever tell you what they believe. If one or some of them created legendary BWC products, name them along with their works.

    As usual in this hobby, the best way is to have a first-hand experience. Not repeating like Amir. Music is complex, not just a impulse response like you argued over and over.

    Let me just paste my honest aha-moment testimonial months ago from another thread. Both mentioned are still in my room. One more frequently used (at least two days a week), the other not very much (once or twice a month?). Can upload picture anytime if necessary, too.

     
  6. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    Look at Andrew Jones' loudspeaker designs. He is a highly competent and skilled engineer. See any big woofers? How about Accuton? Or Dynaudio? Or any competent speaker for that matter. Moving mass is the enemy of performance.
     
  7. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    It’s not my fault you’re stupid and gullible. I’m not talking out of my ass either. I own the gear I recommend and use it every day for everything.

    I run MOTU ESS Conversion into KRK V6 with my current headphones being the Porta Pro, Apple Earbuds, the HD 25 for overdubs, and the JVC Flats that I bought blind due to @ultrabike ’s recommendation. They’re not the Koss competitors ultrabike hoped for but aren’t awful and make a great midforward grot reference and take up less space than a single Auratone or Fostex 6301. Thanks Ultrabike I got the modded Adcom and it’s awesome. Thanks @Ksorota and everyone else. I’m going to get the Quested H108 in a bit for that zero fatigue tightness. I love Proacs but there’s no way my tinnitus can swing their v shape for 6 hours straight without gooing it up with a McIntosh or something.
     
  8. nishan99

    nishan99 Friend

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    I am sorry. I didn't mean to start an argument and the subject was difficult to understand. Your first answer (with that equation and the resonance frequency) was more than enough to connect the dots!.

    Thank you all!.
     
  9. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    Speakers are made for a market. Have you asked Andrew why he hasn't worked on big woofer projects? Well, maybe apart from this. His work is mostly done on speakers meant for the European market which is dominated by small apartments.

    Accuton have their share of large woofers. With that said, I wouldn't be so sure that Accuton's tech works best for low frequency drivers.

    Dynaudio?

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    Genelec?

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    ADAM?

    upload_2020-8-6_22-34-8.png

    Neumann?

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    ATC?

    [​IMG]
     
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I wasn’t referring to you. You asked a great question. No need for apologies.
     
  11. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    this has nothing to do with performance. you dont see huge woofers in "hi-end" design for WAF.
    Purrin just made a huge post about that.
     
  12. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    DIY is appealing given how shit commercial consumer choices are these days but its also a great excuse to never get around to actually trying something. go vintage, buy a known model from a classic audio period and you won't lose on resale.

    entry to BWC can be found in classic 3-way models from the 1960s and 70s, for 500 USD and under. maybe that amount will get you a bluetooth speaker from dynaudio or andrew jones?

    Yamaha NS-690 from 1977. best seller in Japan in the late 70s. priced just a little lower than the legendary NS-1000M. I have heard these speakers 3 times, with super modest electronics (mkI with cloth surrounds only) and was so impressed every time. someone just listed a pair in Toronto for 600 CAD, I may have to go get them this weekend. just one good model out of many. real plywood cabs, no MDF/particleboard shit and some serious domes (Yamaha had the best domes in Nippon, it is known!). try something like this and there will be absolutely no returning to overpriced european monitors

    [​IMG]
     
  13. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    Starter BWC projects?

    2 SI 18" woofers in sealed DIYSG cabs OR

    4 eminence 15s in simple dipole config.
     
  14. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    The Andrew Jones Best Buy pioneers are a bit ass and some of them sound far too close to 80s Asian bookshelves than they do 70s rock out pioneers. He doesn’t make Bolo Yueng speakers. He makes svelt European line arrays for superior European intellectual background Muzak that will not hit back.

    Dynaudio haven’t made a great pro speaker in 20 years. I don’t think they ever made great hifi speakers. Andy Munroe and Jim Dunlavy made the great speakers with Dyn drivers. They let TC Electronics butcher their pro line, The hifi line got weird, and they got bought by the chinese car speaker manufacturer they did some drivers designs for and OEMed their car speakers for the Chinese market. You bought one of their most unwieldy pro designs from back then and that’s still better than almost everything newer they sell now.

    Dyn failed as an exclusive speaker manufacturer rather than a driver OEM themselves. Now they’ve been bought and sold a bunch and their owner needs to recoup some of his investment so they’re trying to sell 4000 dollar class d 7” dsp monstrosities and one note Mid-bass hifi speakers. They aren’t that bad of speakers but they aren’t by any means great.
     
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Did you just call out a bunch of members for making incompetent speakers that have shitty bass quality?

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    No. F = ma.

    Small woofers are the enemy of bass distortion, bass extension, and efficiency.
     
  16. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    Andrew Jones is engineering to be the best at a given price. I think manufacturers like Dynaudio are making good speakers not just speakers for small rooms.

    I had the big woofer mentality and automatically dismissed anything under 15" woofers. My grandfather had a turntable, tube amps and a huge horn system. I've also heard speakers with woofers bigger than 12" but that system was not my cup-of-tea. I wasn't impressed with how inarticulate the bass was, sounded way too boomy.

    I love vintage audio electronics as much as anyone. @k4rstar vintage stuff is cool. I'm sure all of it would demolish (no hyperbole) what is available today. I hate that we have DSP speakers and Class D amps.

    But the DIY project I would have in mind would be an efficient horn system so it'll allow me to use a low watt tube amplifier (which is desirable over a solid state). Probably not going to get the bass performance with tubes over a solid state amp. Probably way out of budget for a beryllium compression driver horn. I'd like to have a mid-range driver, so 3-way for sure. I just can't think of mating a small soft dome to big woofers, seems to me I would be limited to horns based on my preferences.

    As far as gurus, no I just subscribe to a few audio engineering channels on YouTube and bought a few textbooks to read at night. I'm not under the wing of any kind of mentor.

    How many times have you spoken with authority on gear you've never heard? Dude you never even owned a 1/10th of the shit you've overstated on this board. You have a history of this. Hearing gear for 10 minutes at meets don't count.

    https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/sbaf-dac-talk-ii.6964/page-22#post-244799

    You are always constantly changing your opinion. Questeds one day, ATCs the next. Soon enough the MOTU gear is gonna suck and it'll be whatever new thing comes out.

    Not even close. Special Forties ate the BM15s lunch in every single category, in totally different class. Maybe a few classes up. Went from a 10" to a 7" woofer with clear gains. Again, stop talking out of your ass.

    No that's not what I said. I am arguing against contra Psalm-thinking that you need huge woofers for quality bass and that suggests incompetency of the designer. My experience and understanding say that is not true. There seems to be misconceptions about them. I have no doubts about the capability of big woofers and quality bass, that was never my initial argument. I've said before I think the JBL 4367 15" woofer is f'ing insane and awesome. I'd like to have that woofer in a DIY kit.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
  17. spwath

    spwath Hijinks master cum laudle

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    Maybe it's time for me to make some open baffle speakers soon. I have some eminence 15s and 12s laying around, and a pair of old tweeters from YG acoustics. Not sure if they would pair well, but if they did, then just probably need a mid-range and boom we are good.
    Or I could try putting my altec horns in there....
     
  18. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    Okay Rob, you basically just admitted with your last post that you can’t hear one note bass. You’re a deaf idiot.
     
  19. mitochondrium

    mitochondrium Friend

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    Hi Rob,

    once the hole you dug yourself in is so deep you end up in Germany give me a shout. I will invite you and we will put a nice piece of meat on the grill and we will have a drink and I will show you what 2x 15" subwoofers can do.
    I don't think there is such a thing as fast bass but if it is just a description for a certain quality of bass these 15 "are akin to this:


     
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Oh yes you did.

    You keep harping that moving mass is the enemy of performance. Those PAP15 15" woofers are about 60g mms. About triple that of a typical 6.5" poly cone. The 15"s hand over around 700Hz to the large 8" Voxactiv widebander which can hit 14kHz before taking a dump. Those widebanders are probably about 12g. For reference a 1.5" tweeter will have 0.5g mms.

    I doubt your two-ways shoved in a small a box are anywhere as fast as those "bigger high mms" Eminence + Voxactiv on the OB.

    After you complete your first 15" project. Make x2 10" or 12" with similar parameters (except efficiency) and compare. Once you go go big, you never go back. Everything gets ruined. Not even x2 9" high-tech Accutons play bass as clear and nicely as cheap Eminence 15 on an OB. And oh, I've heard the difference. The Accuton's couldn't even reveal a specific DAC's weaknesses on the bottom end because the bass was so blurry.

    Accuton makes one great part: their ceramic mids or bass-mids. Their woofers suck and their diamond tweeters are questionable.

    Andy Jones makes shit ELAC tells him can sell. He made BWC shit when he was at TAD / Pioneer. He won't talk BWC anymore because he has to tow the corporate line. It would be embarrassing and bad for ELAC if told plebs that the BWC shit he made was way better than the ELAC bookshelves he makes now.

    For reference, here is some TAD:

    TAD2.jpg
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    I don't what he told you, but obviously Jones told me a different story when I spoke to him.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020

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