ZMF Auteur - An open back ZMF

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by PacoTaco, Sep 18, 2017.

  1. monacelli

    monacelli Friend

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    How do you find the weight/comfort? As a Senn guy, I look at all these cans in the neighborhood of 450+ grams and don't get it.
     
  2. dncnexus

    dncnexus Friend

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    I own both the 6xx and Auteur Cocobolo and find the weight now bad. But had a hotspot with the lambskin headpad so needed the suede since it's thicker
     
  3. johnnypaddock

    johnnypaddock Facebook Friend

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    Despite the heavier weight, I find ZMF headphones to be more comfortable than Sennheiser. The weight is very evenly distributed, and it's easy to adjust the clamping force on the pads. Many people find that the suspension strap helps as well, although on mine it's usually right up against the headband. I don't get any hot spots, and the Auteur I had was 575g.

    I've found Sennheiser models to be very light, but sometimes the clamping force is too much. The HD-800 was the most comfortable, but I found that I had to adjust it all the time.
     
  4. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    if you sit up straight there is no problem. the headphones do not disappear like a very light Sennheiser HD540 but there is no discomfort

    the problem is I don't listen sitting up straight, I am either leaning back to relax or forward to change tracks. in this case the weight is clearly felt and it is cumbersome, there is extra attention required to keep the head still.
     
  5. zach915m

    zach915m MOT: ZMF Headphones

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    I remember that post @Titus Pullo made in the measurements thread back in 2017 when we released the auteur. There was some interesting back and forth from that post over there!

    I can assure you I made them both for form and function as I am super involved in the hobby as you guys know. In the same vein I try to be available to make suggestions and help via email, PM etc etc and I always want to make our products better. Thanks for trying them.
     
  6. sacredgates

    sacredgates Audio-Technica's high priest

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    Regarding the evaluations by Titus Pullo and k4rstar:
    Amazing how differently we perceive a headphone. I drive my blackwood Auteurs with a powerfull push-pull tube amp though, where I can choose the output impedance settings. Listening habit = medium loud.
    They do sound substantially less impressive directly from the inbuilt Soekris dac1541 amplifier, and with that setup I can partly relate to the criticism.
    I myself on the other hand have a hard time relating to all the praise for the Sennheiser HD-6XX family and prefer the Auteurs by a large margin. I do like my modified HD540s for their lightweight, fantastic openess and their sq for the money, but prefer to listen to the Auteurs 90% of the time. During the other 10% I can enjoy their looks ;).
     
  7. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    I am with you here, as that upper mid/treble "grain" even out of a high end tube amp is so obvious/annoying for me. Yet, most talk about a "smoothness". I prefer my Eikon (closed back Auteur) all day long.

    I know Titus and K4star are referring to, it's just perhaps not as in my face as other qualities I like, at least not most of the time. Indeed, I have an Eikon and a Verite Closed and I want to sell one of them. I can't decide because while the VC is superior technically (though I don't agree with those who put it at or near Utopia level - Clear level is where it is at IMO) it's 3k dip is more in my face than the Eikon's technically inferior homogenization most of the time.
     
  8. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    to clarify a few points

    with regards to 'smoothness' of the HD600/650, they are smooth in terms of lack of narrowband frequency jaggies. they also have a slightly damped transient characteristic in stock form. this does not mean they homogenize grossly, though they certainly can out of lower-end gear, or equipment that over dampens the driver so much that the transient characteristic changes (THX <0.0001ohm OI garbage).

    instead for the Senns we get an ADSR envelope where the attack is slightly softened or pillowed, lending to listenability at the expense of some homogenization and loss of detail.

    [​IMG]

    compare this to certain Beyer, Focal or AKG models where the attack is emphasized.

    in terms of grain, yes this is certainly a shortcoming of the driver/enclosure and affects the tail end of transients, the decay characteristic. by applying dynamat to the rear of the magnet and dampening the plastic enclosure it becomes cleaner but can also artificially shorten decay and emphasize attack.

    with Sennheiser Infinite Scaling(tm) technology, that is using very good gear, these issues are already minimized. I should also note my HD600 and HD650 are both early production pre-2007 models which are smoother both in terms of frequency jaggies and lack of grain.

    with the Auteur, the homogenization is so gross that you can imagine the above chart is a flat plateau. that is, a modicum of complexity in a recording and the dynamics are reduced to zero, everything is the same volume, nothing punches above anything else, the mix collapses. if you like this effect, that is OK. cheaper headphones do not have it though.
     
  9. rott

    rott Secretly hates other millenials - Friend

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    As much as I enjoy the Auteur for much of what I listen to, I agree they do not excel with guitar-heavy music.

    Dollar for dollar the Senns remain quite unbeatable, glad I have them as well, but for many non-brickwalled recordings across various genres the Auteur convey a much more enjoyable listening experience compared to the technically more proficient Senns.
     
  10. fraggler

    fraggler A Happy & Busy Life

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    Interestingly enough (for myself), I can understand if someone doesn't prefer the Auteur. For the longest time I wanted an Auteur because it was the most neutral, most safe, and probably most popular ZMF headphone around here. I was lucky enough to have an extended trial on the "good" rig that I ended up selling off, and while enjoying the Auteur quite a bit, I couldn't get as excited about it as I wanted to. The punch of the Aeolus and the seductive non-correctness of the Verite Closed were much more alluring, especially since I have modded HD650s and HD800s on hand as references. I would never have been able to pinpoint and articulate like others here, but in the end I end up in the same place. I will end up with a Verite Closed, which I kind of instantly loved, and may very well also get an Aeolus down the line. They are the more exciting headphones for me. If I need something chill or analytical, I have established references I can go to, but the Verite and Aeolus offer that different lens that I would like to have.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2020
  11. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    Auteur vs HD650 (stock)

    Thank you
    First off, huge thanks to @k4rstar for putting his cocobolo pair of Auteur out for loaner up here in Canuckland. Living here in Canada, and only being a member on SBAF for a few years, I’ve never had the opportunity to participate in a loaner from the States. For k4 to lend out his personal unit was an amazing thing. Seriously, thank you.

    Big, big disclaimers:
    1. I am a headphone padawan. My schtick has been 2-channel audio for many years, and my only exposure to decent headphones, before a couple of years ago, was some Porta Pros back in the late 90s (which I loved) and a few pair of lower end Shure IEMs along the way.
    2. I listened to these on a modest rig of Vali 2, Modi Multibit and Pi2AES. Bear that in mind (esp the amp).
    3. My only point of comparison with “real headphones” is my pair of stock HD650 (~2016 model I believe). Hence the more direct comparison with the 650, rather than trying to describe their relative sound signature, which I don’t have nearly enough experience to articulate

    With that out of the way, I’ll just mention that my vocabulary and interpretations of what I’m hearing in headphones are obviously not there yet either, due to lack of experience, so you may need to read between the lines in some cases.

    Auteur Impressions
    Overall cleaner, clearer, less “staticky” or grainy sounding than the 650. Immediately way blacker background. Also a bit softer and more rounded. Smoother and liquidy. Zero fatigue, zero. A bit warmer and “richer” perhaps? A bit darker up top. Definitely less airy.

    Low bass hits deeper and more confident without the fuzziness of the 650, but again fairly round/blunt, not tight/taut.

    Instrument seperation very good, with everything pretty well sorted and it doesn’t seem to get mashed together as much when things get busy, like with the 650.

    Feels like a warmer overall balance, but maybe due to a darker tilt in the highs and what seems like a bump in the mid/upper bass region?

    Male vocals sound nice and smooth but a bit congested on occasion (cupped?) compared to 650, which sounds more open in comparison. The upper bass also seems to bleed into the mids a bit which doesn’t help male vocals.

    Good tonal colours. Timbrally they sounded very good, with nothing really I would complain about compared to the HD650. I prefer the highs of the Auteur compared to the HD650 only because of the cleanliness and black background behind each note. Cymbals are just so much cleaner. However they also lack air and bite, so there is that. Mids timbre seemed good - nothing too bad other than maybe again lacking some bite and incisiveness for some stringed and brass instruments.

    Bass timbre was ok, but can’t say I hear a ton of definition to the notes. And there definitely seems to be something messed up in the upper bass/lower mids. It becomes a mess at certain points and certain bass notes.

    Staging: hell if I know. I listen to speakers mostly, so they sound like they’re next to my head or inside my head, just like other headphones pretty much. I detect a bit of difference between these and the 650 but I don’t have much ability to articulate it. Vocals seem a bit more “distant” maybe? Perhaps that’s just a recession in mids FR, not sure.

    Going back over to the 650s

    650 more has prominent highs like cymbals and high hats, but way “dirtier” sounding. Auteur is clean, but less air and duller.

    650 is certainly more bass light and has less heft, but seems tighter the upper bass. Overall 650 bass actually seemed a bit snappier and tighter, although it definitely doesn’t go as deep. Low notes are not clean though like Auteur, but there does seem to be less boost in the upper bass (no bleed into the mids, or not as much at least).

    Switching over, the 650 sounds immediately more “FM radio” and staticky/grainy compared to Auteur, which are more smooth and refined like “proper hifi”. But the Auteurs are also a bit boring and reticent sounding in comparison and less open.

    650 vocals were more forward for sure and seem clearer and more intelligible. Mids overall are more open sounding and less constrained on the 650.

    Build/comfort

    As far as build goes, the weight of these was surprising for me - they’re heavy and they tend to move around when your head moves around, but nothing too much to worry about (sitting at a desk at least, like I do).The cups are quite large and with the angled pads, they push under my jaw a bit and are a bit more fatiguing to wear. But again, nothing that bothered me too too much. I couldn’t likely wear these all day continuously, but a couple hours at a stretch wasn’t an issue for me. I did start to get just a touch sweaty with these at points after a couple hours though. The quality of the build though does seem absolutely exceptional and are clearly boutique.

    1-track impression of Auteur:

    Norah Jones, It’s a Wonderful Time for Love - the piano and bass at the beginning have real weight (but not slam, at least on my amp) and vocals are smooth and clean with great body, although a touch congested or cupped-in. Rim shots are clear, but not really crisp or incisive. I don’t really feel the air in the space as much as I do with the 650s.

    Overall conclusions:

    I generally like the Auteur’s smoothness, clean black background and deeper bass, but the upper bass bump bleeding into the mids bugged me. And the lack of air, incisiveness and dynamics came off as a bit slow and boring sounding.

    It’s possible I might like these on a faster/ leaner/stronger solid state amp, or a very tight, fast and clean tube amp, to give it some cleaner lines and more speed and attack and air. Also maybe a less warm/dark DAC than Modi Multibit. I did try them with the the Vali 2 on Yggdrasil A2 briefly and did like it better, but the difference wasn’t massive. I think the amp is the likely bottleneck here.

    Overall, these are not really my sound, at least not with my current chain. I prefer more openness and liveliness and incisiveness and air to my sound. And I would want that upper bass bump dealt with. I definitely would not give up my 650s for these with my current chain (esp considering the massive price difference). Perhaps on a better chain, but I think it would take a lot of get me there. But who knows - I am padawan, so I barely know my ass from my elbow at this point. ;-)
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2020
  12. zach915m

    zach915m MOT: ZMF Headphones

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    Have you guys tried the universe pads on the auteur? I'm not sure I've seen what pads are used mentioned at all. If doing a tour where you guys are making "final statements" we should get you all the earpad possibilities since it's such an important part of ZMFs.

    The suede pads have less transient attack and dynamics than lambskin pads.
     
  13. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    they were sent with Auteur Lambskin and Auteur Suede. I don't know if these are the stock pads. I only tried with lambskin
     
  14. zach915m

    zach915m MOT: ZMF Headphones

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    If you guys want a couple sets of pads for the tour I'd be happy to provide them. Email me directly through the site. Universe Lamb Pads are more neutral and airy, bring the ear closer to the driver like with the sennheiser headphones. The Be2 pads do that even further.

    I'd love to help, just reach out!
     
  15. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    well, I certainly appreciate the offer, but now the tour has ended. a few people who tried this same pair liked them quite a bit, so it's not all bad!

    I do have a hard time believing pads would do much to alleviate the issue of transients or dynamics. the tone and timbre were mostly fine, I would not ask for more air or to bring the driver closer to the ear.
     
  16. zach915m

    zach915m MOT: ZMF Headphones

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    Earpads and the space between the driver actually change the measurements and subjective perception quite a bit, remember we're in a "tiny room" with earpads and every change even if minor - changes the way the cavity of your ear perceives things. This is why we make all the pads we do so that each person, with different anatomies can find what suits them best.

    @brencho may be a good person to chime in as he settled on universe pads after starting with auteur pads, but I'm not sure he ever tried be-2 pads.

    If you don't believe me try the auteur pads you have on your sennheisers and see what happens.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2020
  17. jnak00

    jnak00 Friend

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    I also had a few days with @k4rstar's Auteur - thanks for putting your own set on tour for us Canadians. Like @rlow I would consider myself a headphone Padawan but I'll put my impressions out there too. Past experience includes the Aeolus and HD-6XX, which I still have, as well as Ether CX, TH-X00, and HE-400S, which I've sold.

    I use Bifrost 2 and Asgard 3 and compared these to my Aeolus. I only used the Lambskin pads; I did not try the suede ones.

    Firstly, these were much heavier than my Aeolus, and for some reason fit much looser. Not sure if the headband had been bent or not. My Aeolus stays pretty firm on my head, but the Auteur would move around pretty easily.

    The earpads are thicker too. The drivers sit a bit further away compared to Aeolus - with Aeolus my ears just touch the fabric covering the driver, but not at all on Auteur. I also found the Auteur to sound a bit more open/distant - might be because of this positioning. I did try the Auteur pads on my Aeolus and noted a similar, though somewhat less dramatic, difference.

    I also noticed a bit more reverb effect on the Auteur. Some sounds just seem to sustain and even echo slightly on the Auteur. Switching back to the Aeolus, I hear some of the same effect but it's not nearly as noticeable. I noticed it for the first time when I was listening for it in comparison to the Auteur.

    I found the treble on the Auteur to be more energetic and a bit zingier, at times causing sibilance. No such issues on the Aeolus, which smooths the treble more. Bass-wise, the Auteur has less mid-bass and more sub-bass. Some songs seems a bit bass shy comparing Auteur and Aeolus, while other tracks with more lower bass emphasis hit pretty hard.

    I liked the Auteur, but like my Aeolus more. If I bought Auteur, I think I would enjoy it but eventually move on to something else. In comparison, Aeolus fits my preference pretty much bang on and I don't see myself moving on from these anytime soon.
     
  18. lcmusiclover

    lcmusiclover Friend

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    Interesting post. I'll have to listen to those tracks and see if I hear what you hear. Of course my opinion will be quite biased given my love for my Blackwood Auteur. I will say that to my ears, Auteur respond to amp changes specifically more than any of my other cans.
     
  19. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    @lcmusiclover thanks, please do. these recordings are certainly not the pinnacle of fidelity, but that is besides the point. they were mastered for a certain aesthetic to suit the music, I would like to hear that aesthetic and the music including the guitar progression and layering.

    yes you're not wrong but I would expect putting pads not designed for the sennheisers on them would spoil the sound. as the Auteur lambskin are the stock pads (I think?) I would assume they provide a baseline of performance that one can judge.

    anyway I don't think these are kosher for what I'm looking for out of a transducer. I tried to like them (twice!), so nothing malicious in my intentions or implication that no one should enjoy them. about 24 pages of positive impressions in this thread to counter balance mine :)
     
  20. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    I've also had the chance to try the Auteur. I used the pads that came with it and didnt bother swapping them cause I didnt think it would change the overall experience.

    Ive compared them to my usual headphones (hd800, utopia, hd650), usual amps and source-dac.

    I'll make it brief as I have the same critics @k4rstar and @ Tito so no need to repeat.

    pros:
    extremely smooth, no fatigue possible whatsoever. even extremely loud, they are still pleasant to listen to. This aspect is very unique to me, Ive never experienced this before
    bass has good levels and is fun
    vocals have some sort of magic
    Build quality is beautiful
    decent soundstage
    comfortable

    cons:
    extremely slow. transients are missing in action. this aspect kills this headphone as they make for a boring listening experience. so boring in fact I just kept on changing tunes to try to find a suitable genre for the headphones.
    lack of mids details. I find the hd650 gives obviously more resolution in the mids.
    lack of air up top
     

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