Rockna Wavedream DAC: Awesomesauce

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by purr1n, Nov 7, 2019.

  1. Beefy

    Beefy Friend

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    Yeah, there's no way parts alone justifies the price. But for a discrete R-2R ladder DAC, there is so much going on in the programming and implementation, that a design could definitely end up being much more than the sum of it's parts.
     
  2. m17xr2b

    m17xr2b Friend

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    I'm paying for someone's proven experience across the biggests names in the industry expecting a product close to perfection for my requirements as a SOTA value item otherwise I'd get a MSB Reference if I could. Topping is the place for close to BOM oriented decisions where the designer and builder have no importance. If it was easy everyone would have wavedream quality sound and it's a shame it's not the case, let's not fall for the BOM trap since 98% of audio and audio related products have this issue.
     
  3. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    Definitely, I understand this, I called it R&D but this is true.

    yes, this makes sense. I'm not fishing the BOTM There's also another factor that comes into play once you start having to charge a certain amount for a product or service where you need to make a profit. Wedding photography is so expensive because of this. Hasselblad digital cameras are so expensive because of this. They figure out how many units they are likely to sell and have to charge enough for their business to make a profit off those sales. Hasselblad could charge a lot less if they sold as many cameras as Nikon/Canon. Point is that it could be more expensive than it otherwise would be simply because of the demand for such an expensive device. Which is just part of buying something like this. Same with a Hasselblad.

    My question wasn't meant as an assertion that it is overpriced, but an honest question that might lead to interesting responses.
     
  4. pr1nce

    pr1nce New

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    looking at parts cost I would say manufacturer cost is around few hundred dollars, but like with any kind of goods working on emotions and satisfaction - market price can be whatever amount as long as it delivers what customers expect.
     
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  5. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Designers and engineers should be working for free to figure out what works and how to get to the real pinnacle of sound. Right?

    These people have trained themselves for decades, often dedicated their life to it. Spent thousands of hours tinkering, thinking, meditating. Made tens or hundreds of prototypes, six figure sums (or more) spent on development of, wait for it .. one product. When you see a simple thing (few parts) do hi-end sound, this is the real wonder.
    The parts inside count for a little in comparison to the development cost.

    People have accustomed to purchasing mass produced stuff ,this mentality does not help them to understand how high-end audio works. It is more like experimental science than typical product development for masses.
    The few high-end worthy devices that have been discussed in this site to me appear like pretty good value products.
     
  6. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    I didn't mean to assert that, of course they shouldn't. Like I said I was just curious what the actual parts cost was and how much was other factors. A 10k DAC is very very expensive. It just made me wonder. Who knows if their pricing is "fair" or not. They're either charging what they need to to make the profits they want/deserve/need or they've got a specific business strategy that is low sales numbers and high price. Hard to know. The audio world is full o crazy pricing strategies.

    I think this is generally a good conversation to have with a 10k DAC. And I'm not sure we need to assume that the pricing isn't a bit like some 10k cables. Maybe it's not, there's definitely reasonalble explanations for why a DAC could cost this much. But there are also crazy reasons.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2021
  7. mitochondrium

    mitochondrium Friend

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    The question is are you the good enough is enough or the I want the best of the best no matter how hard the law of diminishing returns hits you. At a certain point the question is more am I ready to pay that much money instead of is it worth the money they charge. The answer can only be a personal one.
     
  8. Beefy

    Beefy Friend

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    It's still definitely a valid question. There are heaps of options for discrete ladder DACs these days, with options like, I dunno, Soekris or Denafrips at a fraction of the price. They surely have heaps of R&D too, so what makes up the difference?

    Well, for Soekris the difference in casework is pretty huge, and it uses a non-nonsense switcher versus the Rockna's linear supplies. Denafrips is very nicely cased, and I would imagine that the ridiculously huge capacitor banks they use add a lot to parts cost.

    So, what is someone paying for? Does the Rockna have more R&D? Better R&D? Better marketing? Prettier casework that evokes value? Pure placebo of spending more? Once the R&D is done and paid for on halo products, shouldn't follow ups and entry level cut downs come in at cheaper prices?

    I don't know, because I've never heard the Rockna. But if we TLDR it, questioning a value proposition is always valid.
     
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  9. AdvanTech

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    Most people would lose their minds to learn the price of a Soekris DAC1321 or Bifrost 2. It's all relative.
     
  10. GoldenOne

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    I have a full review of the Wavedream Signature Balanced DAC itself coming, but wanted to post some thoughts and measurements of the Wavedream NET.

    I'll expand on my actual thoughts of the sound once I've spent more time with it (it only just got in today), but wanted to get the post up sooner so that if anyone has any specific things they wanted me to test with the NET or the DAC whilst they're can suggest sooner and I can do them.

    A HUGE thank you to @m17xr2b for lending these to me.
    I'll be posting a full video review of the DAC, and will update the NET post with some more subjective thoughts later on.

    https://goldensound.audio/2021/08/28/rockna-wavedream-net-review-and-measurements/
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2021
  11. m17xr2b

    m17xr2b Friend

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    I've been meaning to share impressions of the Wavedream and Net but realised some time ago I have tube blinkers and I'd actually end up describing the amp or the passive preamp rather than the digital components. Without recent multiple dac and transport experience it's hard to judje the performance outside of it's the bee's knees.

    @GoldenOne accepted my request review and having this beast measured on the AP is a definite plus and I hope we'll have some objective graphs to compare against other heavy hitters.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2021
  12. GoldenOne

    GoldenOne Friend

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  13. Tachikoma

    Tachikoma Almost "Made"

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    On the subject of PC-based transports, is there a chance you'll take a look at PC soundcards (the Lynx ones especially) and see how they shape up with respect to USB-based solutions?
     
  14. GoldenOne

    GoldenOne Friend

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    If the manufacturer or a user sends one I'd be happy to
     
  15. AdvanTech

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    The Rockna USB implementation is better than a Lynx E22. I've removed my Lynx from my chain since getting a Wavelight. I can hear an improvement going from Unison USB to Pi2AES, but I'm not sure if I can reliably differentiate between Rockna USB and Pi2AES.
     
  16. GoldenOne

    GoldenOne Friend

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    Honestly I don't think there's much need to get a DDC with the wavedream. The inbuilt USB implementation is excellent and many DDCs will actually likely give you poorer jitter performance than just using the USB will.

    Also, I've just updated the post to add a report with the Linear filter on but dither disabled, as well as added some graphs to the main post. Definitely looks like keeping dither on is worthwhile:

    https://goldensound.audio/2021/08/30/rockna-wavedream-signature-balanced-measurements/
     
  17. NickJ

    NickJ New

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  18. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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  19. famish99

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    @GoldenOne the NOS photo was for an impulse response right? What results do you get when you try a square wave (I think 50Hz)?

    Edit: The IR ended up forming a square wave with a frequency of roughly 22kHz.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2021
  20. GoldenOne

    GoldenOne Friend

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    It was yeah.
    I'll do a square wave test before it goes. Got it in the listening setup atm
     

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