Vera-Fi Audio Vanguard Speaker Impressions

Hi @ergopower, thank you for the review and your listening impressions. I am surprised you characterized the Vanguards as “bright”, as they are carefully voiced to have a classic “Harman House Curve” or a sloping frequency response that goes downwards towards the high frequencies. There is about a -5dB slope from 100Hz to 20kHz, which has been found to be particularly pleasing to listen to so as to avoid being called bright or fatiguing. If you look at the predicted and measured frequency response, you can see this downward tilt:

If the system you are used to listening to has a broad trough or valley from 1kHz to 3kHz, that will reduce its presence and another speaker that is neutral through that region may seem “bright” by contrast.

I think you mention Emotiva ERM-1? Perhaps we can take a look at the measured response and see what the difference is. But my opinion (and many others) is that the Vanguards are not bright. They are resolving but that’s different.

Here is a frequency response measurement of the ERM-1 by Audioholics:

We can see that the region from 1200Hz to 4kHz is depressed by -4dB or so. The high end frequency on the ER-1 is actually “brighter” if you look at how it rises.

 

I was also surprised. I had dug up that same chart for the ERM-1 and yours was posted earlier. The ERM-1 does have a BBC dip. Maybe 'bright' was the wrong adjective.
To some extent I am just adapted to the ERMs because I've been listening to them in 2 different setups for 10+ years.

 

Pic first:



First, a big thanks to @xrk971 and SBAF for the opportunity to try these speakers at home. I have been living with a pair of Klipsch Forte 3s for almost 3 years now. They have turned out to be an almost perfect “lifestyle” match (a term I’m borrowing from @k4rstar and @Gazny which I like) so I had to jump on the chance to try something almost completely opposite from that approach.

The TLDR version is: the Vanguards were not a good match for my system. I neglected to ask for the 100W amp that can be sent with these as a package. I have an Aegir at home which I thought would work well enough given:

• I typically listen around 70dB give or take with peaks into the mid- to high 80s
• Herb Reichert at Stereophile had a lot of nice things to say about the Aegir powering some bookshelf Harbeths and other small speakers of comparable efficiency

Based on what I was hearing, I am inclined to believe that this is just not the case with the Vanguards and that they need more power than I was giving them. I’ll give some detail below, most of which is negative, but given other positive impressions and the details of my particular setup, please weigh what I have to say accordingly. If anything, my impressions can serve as a reference for those who want to try with a similar setup (or maybe a warning against doing it @crenca).

The rest of my chain for reference: source is Pi2AES (AES XLR out) → Yggdrasil LIM (SE out) → Goldpoint → Aegir → speakers. It could also be that the voicing of the Vanguards is not a good match for LIM + Aegir, but I’d blame power requirements first given others impressions here.

As you can see, I also didn’t set these up on stands, but positioned them on top of the console that my TV sits on. They were flush with the front edge to minimize interactions with the top surface and the height of the console is about 28” so speakers were reasonably close to the height they’d be on proper stands.

I can say that build quality is exceptional. I have not ever seen bamboo veneer executed in a way that I liked over other hardwoods, but these look and feel great.

Much respect again to @xrk971 for sending your creation out into the wild. They did not end up working for me, but I enjoyed the opportunity.

Spoiler: Listening impressions

I tried these with a nice range of acoustic and electronic music, male and female vocals, studio and live recordings, etc. I listened to these over the course of a few days before sitting down to do real critical listening with a playlist of tracks. I volume matched the Vanguards using a dB app on my phone to a given level so I wouldn’t just be reacting to a difference in volume.

The Vanguards often sounded sleepy and congested, lacking dynamics. This was especially evident with electronic music. I’ve never not tapped my foot listening to Robyn and the music just did not have the energy it should.

There was also a real lack of resolution and low-level micro detail across the whole spectrum. On the low end, things like electric bass guitar was rendered as simple notes without the sound of fingers on the strings or the texture/tone of the bass amplifier. Tabla-type drums sounded rounded, diffuse and were missing the details that let you get a sense of the tension of the skin, the way the musician is hitting, etc.

I was decently surprised by the power of the bass these small boxes could reproduce. There is definite thump there, so there is that.

On the high end, there was a lack of air, high hats didn’t have the right kind of crisp shimmer, recordings that emphasize the recording space/venue were missing the subtle cues, echoes, ripples in the air that make spaces real.

Mids were the best of the spectrum and remained decent throughout. Guitar and vocals were nicely rendered. Not as resolving as what I’m used to, but better than what I heard from the lows and highs.

It all adds up to a general unease, because you are straining to hear things you know are there in the track but are not being resolved. Not a good feeling.

I would give these points for imaging, which was impressive. Center image was very solid and instruments were easy to locate within the soundstage. I’m sure this could get spookily realistic with better resolution and dynamics.

 

I found with my LS3/5A that a single Aegir just completely lacked the ability to get them going in any satisfying or dynamic way. Stunning vocals, but that was about it. So I am not super surprised by that finding. I like a lot of Guttenberg/Reichert stuff, but I continue to find their take that an Aegir is a good match for LS50 or LS3/5A to be utterly baffling. I found even monoblock Aegirs in the long-run lacked the needed grunt with these inefficient sealed speakers.

Very important impressions to share, appreciate you sharing your findings.

 

Yep. (Although I might split hairs and say with vocals: stunning realism and tone while still lacking in resolution, micro)

 

Hi Boops,
Thanks for your impressions and honest opinion. Although I am not surprised that you think you need more power for Vanguards which are 83dB sensitive speakers, I am surprised that you say it lacks air and dynamics. This might be from compression or clipping on the Aegir’s which top out at circa 20w into 4ohms and this is a true 8ohm speaker so probably lot less. I suspect your years of being used to the Forte’s may have trained your ears to a certain signature and speaker sensitivity that is in the stratospheric range of circa 97dB at 1W and 1m from a speaker with horn loaded tweeter and midrange. That is 14dB more sensitivity and that is a world of difference. According to tests by ASR, an Aegir makes about 20W max before clipping sets in and has a relatively low 20dB of gain. If you listen at 70dB on Forte’s, that’s -27dB below 1W of power or only 45mW of power. That gives you a total of 32dB dynamic range before clipping. On the Vanguard, 70dB is -13dB below 1W or about 224mW. To get to 20W from 224mW is only 20dB of dynamic range before you clip the amp. So what you may be hearing is the difference between a system with 20dB vs 32dB of dynamic range. It also means your crescendos are at least 12dB louder before being compressed or clipped.

If you still have the speaker and would like to try it with a 60w or 75w amp we can send you one to try.

One clarification is that the bamboo is solid carbonized “plyboo” It’s not veneer but the self wood you see.

For reference, here is Forte III response as measured by Stereophile:

 

I'm not aware of the ASR tests you're referring too, but Schiit's website specs lists Aegir's power output at 20W into 8 Ohms. Not trying to refute your math, just point that out in case that changes your calculations. I don't think I know what it sounds like when an amp clips so I can't confirm that's what was happening. (You should try them with an Aegir and see what you think.)

Believe me I am fully aware of the differences between the Fortes and Vanguards and appreciate that they represent completely different approaches, priorities, designs. They are what I am used to, but It would be a mistake to understand my comments as a shootout between the two.

My comments were impressions of the Vanguards in the context of a system with Aegir as the amp. It is not what anyone would typically pair with 83 dB sensitive speakers, but like I said, given that I don't listen that loud and comments from good ol' Herb, I thought it would be ok. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. No sweat. I don't fault the speakers, and I think everyone here is savvy enough to understand that context. Like @Inoculator, I am wondering what HR is smoking over there, but that's a mystery for another day.

Thanks for the clarification! It looks and feels great.

 

Hi Boops,
The review by ASR is here:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...surements-of-schiit-aegir-pwr-amplifier.9314/

Power into 8ohms was measured as 17w into 8ohms before clipping.



I fully respect and appreciate your review within the context of the system as limited by a 20w amp.

 

I anticipated an Aegir would be a stretch with Vanguards, and this little experiment with KEF Q350's (an 87db sensitive speaker) is evidence the Aegir is not a match for mid/low sensitive bookshelves:

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...ower-amp-impressions.6953/page-43#post-375416

The low mids/upper bass just goes missing with these sorts of loads, though like @Boops I can still hear the magic of the Aegir with female voices and on up.

I will give the Aegir a try but I anticipate the Vera Fi amp class D will be needed, and I will also have everyone's favorite on hand, a Parasound A23

 

By contrast what does a Vanguard sound like with a 600w amp?

The bass on some tracks that I thought I knew, really came alive. Does this mean that even 100wpc amps suffer from compressed bass, unbeknownst to us?

 

@xrk971 These were recommended to me by a local DC area audiophile, and they sound like they may be exactly what I am looking for in a nearfield use scenario. Please let me know if there is a way to try them/ get on a list? Also, what are your thoughts on how they would pair with a Cambridge CXA80 amp (80W RMS into 8 Ohms, 120W RMS into 4 Ohms).

Thx, dac2800

 

Hi Dac2800,
The Vanguards are easy to drive. Nominal impedance is close to 11ohms so most amps should have no problem. 80w is perfect. I think Rhythmdevil will get you on the list. If you are in Northern VA, you are welcome to come by my lab to hand pick them up.

 

Thanks for the opportunity to try these out. I really enjoyed my time with these speakers.

I did a comparisons in two primary setups: the near field setup at my desk and in my listening room, so a couple different amps and speakers used to compare. I've summarized the amplifier and speakers used below. I used the Klipsch speakers in both setups as the nearest (size wise) direct comparison to the Vanguards.

• Amplifiers
  • Vidar (listening room)
  • LSA Warp One (listening room)
  • Nobsound Class A Desktop Amp (near field)
  • Bottlehead S.E.X. (near field)

• Speaker comparisons
  • Vandersteen 2c (listening room)
  • Klipsch R-51M (near field and listening room)

My listening room is a second bedroom, maybe 12 feet square so not too big. The Vandersteens are set up about 2 feet from the back wall and 1 foot from the side walls, and I have the walls lined with books and records but no specific room treatments. I didn't want to move the big speakers so I set up the Vanguards on stands several feet out into the room.

Near field is speakers mounted on stands at ear height on either side of my desk. They are in the corners of the room and so get some wall reinforcement. Not an ideal setup either but it gets the job done.

The Vanguard speakers have really good imaging, especially in the listening room setup. Music did not sound like it was coming from the speakers; the stage was a couple feet behind them and extended past. The sweet spot is fairly wide.

There is limited bass, which is to be expected from a pair of bookshelf speakers. In the near-field setup it worked out fairly well overall, with a little help from the rear wall. I'm used to limited bass at the desk anyways. In the listening room though the lack of a woofer really leaves something missing in the sound. I think for a subwoofer would probably help a lot.

Some aspects of the Vanguards were definitely better than the Vandersteens, including the imaging and the size of the sweet spot. However, the overall effect was less musical and engaging overall. They didn't sound as effortless as I could have hoped; it sounded a little like they were trying hard on louder passages. Much of this may be from the missing bass, though I'm not sure. Honestly I don't think full size 3-way speakers is really a fair comparison against bookshelves. My opinion is that if you have a space you can use large speakers in, go for large speakers.

Not surprisingly, the comparison to the Klipsch bookshelf speakers was even more unfair in the other direction. In the listening room the Klipsch speakers had muddy imaging and the stage only extended to the speakers themselves. They are also a little brighter than the Vanguards which I don't prefer. In the near field the weaknesses of the Klipsch speakers are less apparent, especially when run from the Nobsound or S.E.X. amps, which are somewhat warm. That setup is also less sensitive to imaging or soundstage issues.

Speaking of low power amps, the Vanguards are very much not efficient. Even in a nearfield setup they really need some power. While the 2 watt S.E.X. amp could run the speakers decently in near field it felt like I was pushing the amp pretty hard and they couldn't get loud. The approximately 20 watt Nobsound amp was a better fit.

In the listening room Vidar had no trouble, and neither did the Warp One amp that was also on loan. Both had plenty of power on tap.

It seems like in either case you'd want a decent amount of power to drive the Vanguards. At 84 dB efficiency these don't seem like a good fit for a low power SET amp.

Speaker size is typical bookshelf, nothing unusual there. They are heavy for their size, and I think the photographs provided show why.

These speakers have really lovely fit and finish. I really like how nicely it all fits together and how smooth and polished it is. The magnetic grills are fine. I left them on through my testing though if I owned these I might take them off.

I'm kind of sad I had to send them on, they are a really great pair of bookshelf speakers.

 

Hi Scblock,
Thanks for your listening impressions. Great to hear that imaging was better than Vandersteen 2c’s - which have a baffleless design for the midrange and tweeter, which I would have thought would have had great imaging. Bass is limited of course anytime you have a small sealed cabinet bookshelf speaker, and indeed a subwoofer below 80Hz would help tremendously on certain genres. But as you found out, wall reinforcement can really help.

 

The Vandersteens have great imaging, but they are picky on placement and have a small sweet spot. I set up the Vanguards somewhat simply and immediately had a solid centered image that held even if I wasn't in the perfect spot. I'm unlikely to replace the 2cs any time soon but I appreciate what these little boxes were able to achieve.

 

Stereophile measurements show Aegir meets the 40 watt specification at 4Ω just fine

 

Thank you. I am very local (just off the Beltway in MoCo). Just let me know when is convenient.

 

Belatedly posting very stale thoughts of my time with the Vera Vanguards.

Spoiler: Caveats

First to clarify where I'm coming from... I am not a 2 channel person and have not had a 2 channel system in close to 30 years (the beater speakers in my workshop are background noise). I will soon be in a position to create a 2 channel setup in my living room. My goal with this loaner was to get ears on an affordable set of BBC style speakers and see where that leads.

So in other words, my listening was not in a treated room, there was little care in trying to figure out the ideal positioning, I don't have multiple amp pairings to talk about or other speakers to compare to. The following are the words of a 2 channel neophyte.

Roon -> Pi2AES -> Bitfrost 2 -> LSA Warp 1 -> Vera Vanguards
I set these up in my home office, which is located in one end of our 14'x18' sunroom. There is lots of glass, but all have blinds which are shut most of the time. The room is fairly cluttered since I took it over during the pandemic, extra bookcases, a large desk, filing cabinet, more monitors than I care to look at, etc... and the speakers were set up about 8' away from my desk, pointed at me, but not exactly the equilateral triangle that I is recommended. It was definitely makeshift and I assume working against the speakers.

I fired these up and put on some background music (singer song-writer, folksy/bluegrass type stuff) and was immediately impressed by the clarity. Everything just seemed to pop out, very lively and toe tapping. Switched to some jazz and was equally impressed, although they didn't reach low enough for the double bass. Chamber music was also right in the wheelhouse.

Things that were problematic: anything with extensive bass - the bass is tight, but there just isn't enough punch or quantity from these little speakers - for me, I'd definitely have to add a sub. The other shortcoming would be anything that wanted to sound "big" (I assume this has more to do with my lack of setup than the speakers themselves). A full-range orchestra or a 70's concert rock live album just fell flat - small sounding.

Spoiler: wife's all important reaction

I had been listening for a couple hours the first night when my wife came in the room and was like "what's that?" She rolled her eyes when I told her about the loaner program and my goal of putting a two channel system in the living room (she is not a music person)... but I noticed she stayed to listen for a little bit. Later I was listening to some old style R&B and she actually came in the room and started dancing! She said that it was nice to listen to music from good speakers and authorized a 2 channel LR system on the spot (I won the war without even having to fight a battle).

Conclusion
I plan to listen to much more before making a system decision (and am already planning on building a BLH with some Fostex drivers I picked up here to try out with my Studio B). But I was really impressed by the clarity, musicality and sheer toe-tappingness of the Vanguard/Warp 1 pairing with many of the main genre's I listen to. As a reasonably priced/un-pack-the-box solution - these have definite appeal.

 

Thank you for your listening impressions Dasman66! Glad that the Vanguards got your wife dancing. Biggest bonus is the ATP (authorization to proceed) on a new system!

One thing that helps with bass is to use these closer to a back wall and a smaller room. 14x18 is on the larger side and a sub would definitely help.

 

Room: my 12x14 listening room was initially a pretty terrible echo chamber so it is heavily treated now. I mention this as it may impact my impressions vs other people's. The ablum panels are 4" thick with bass traps along the bottom on the front wall. You can't see the side & ceiliing panels, nor the rear corner bass traps -- as I said, heavily treated.


Hearing: 13k is limit of my 48yo ears (https://www.echalk.co.uk/Science/biology/hearing/HowOldIsYourHearing/resource.html)

I used the hardware I was most familiar with for the listening. All impressions were down with my sub off.
Signal Path: Roon > PiAES > Bifrost2 > Freya > Vidar

Upon my Initial listening session the thing that stuck me the most was that they had a very interesting sound stage. It was more like being in the middle of the performance than sitting in front of stage. Maybe another way of saying this is vocals felt right at the listening position, even sometimes to the side, and the music was futher back in depth. This was across multiple artists so it was not just a given recording. Sound stage was also very wide but with less center image than the Paradigm Refence Studio 20v5's that I used for comparison (not really fair to compare them with my NX Studios).
However as I listened to a greater variety of things, some tracks were pretty special sounding (partidularly vocals with accoustic accompaniment), other tracks I just didn't feel like I was getting the complete picture, others had me checking if I had accidently left the sub on. It had me second guessing myself but then switching back to the Studio 20s assured me I wasn't just hearing things (sorry I didn't make notes as I was listening so I can't say which track brought out these different items).

These anomolies prompted me to break out REW and my UMIK1 mic the following evening. The graph might help explain why the Vanguards (in red) were so hit or miss depending on the track I was listening to. 3 sets of speakers all taken the same day. Side note: I was surprised how similar the Paradigm & NX Studios measured, just goes to how little a frequency graph tells you of how a speaker sounds.


Build quality was very nice.

I appreaciate the opportunity to get to listen to them and a soundstage like they have is not something I've experienced before but for my highly varied music listening choices it's not something that would be satisfying to me over the long term.

Unfortunately I did not get a chance to try it with other amplification options before they were requsted to be sent back.

HTH