Senneheiser HD660S Impressions

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by Ray, Oct 25, 2017.

  1. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    [​IMG]

    We never asked for this.

    It sounds just like that. A far cry from what Beyer and AKG are cooking, but with recent HD6XX drops the value is low. Also what's with the 4.4mm bastard jack?
     
  2. Ringingears

    Ringingears Honorary BFF

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    There's a new sheriff in town. And he says you’ll take what we give you and you’ll like it. And pay more, and you’ll say it’s worth it and ask for more of the same. Damned if we’re gonna lose money on those HD700 drivers.
     
  3. Dino

    Dino Friend

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    This one: http://headphonespares.sennheiser.co.uk/ ? If so, that is too bad. They had the most complete assortment of Sennheiser spares that I have found online.
     
  4. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    It's Sennheiser marketing trying to keep things "fresh". That's what marketing departments do. If you think about it, the HD600 wasn't really needed as there was already the HD580. Heck, the HD650 (early veiled version) was not needed either. The later HD650s seem to have been tuned more and more back toward the HD600. The best HD650 was 2014-2015 vintage. The latest 2016-2017 version, that seemed to coincide with the Massdrop HD6XX, has the best transient response (little more rise around 5kHz, but higher 3rd order, no need to remove damping on either side). I am convinced there have been changes over time. Photos of the internals and measurements bare this out.

    The HD660S is a different (2 steps forward, 3 steps back) variant, priced and marketed (my HF) as an upgrade. If Sennheiser continues on their current path - how many people have wanted a true HD650 upgrade, like for five years now? - then let's hope Focal kicks their ass. French vs. Germans. The Focal Clear is already everything I wanted an upgraded HD650 to be. It's expensive, but Focal has ZERO competition for this kind of sound right now. Those who want a HD600/650 successor already have a path and it's not in this thread.
     
  5. ButtUglyJeff

    ButtUglyJeff Stunningly beautiful IRL

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    Margins suck with the HD650 (HD6xx). So how do you fix it? You reset the clock by discontinuing the HD650, and bring in a replacement that more people are willing to pay list price for...
     
  6. iFi audio

    iFi audio MOT iFi Audio

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  7. Senorx12562

    Senorx12562 Case of the mondays

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    Tyll seemed sincerely flummoxed.
     
  8. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    Pulled up a comparison between average curves. HD600 and HD650 contain more than a hundred samples with heavy bias towards recently manufactured batches. HD660 S is averaged between 3 models, each with more than 20 measurements with different positioning. All measurements have been hand tuned to eliminate artefacts.

    [​IMG]

    The good news is that the later HD600's are extremely similar to HD650. Hence maybe we shouldn't fret too much.
     
  9. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    So the modern HD600 is essentially comparable to the HD650 of the same vintage, save for a touch more sparkle in the upper registers? That's extremely reassuring, if mildly unfortunate for people looking for more relaxing cans.

    I do recall reading somewhere (InnerFidelity?) that the 650s may have better driver matching than the 600s. Would you say the same holds true for current models, @Hrodulf? Given that the bulk of samples taken are from latter batches anyway.
     
  10. Klasse

    Klasse Friend

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    @Hrodulf

    I've bought the HD600 and HD650 in 2016, both sounded similarly mid-bassy to me. Slightly different upper midrange and treble though. It's said that HD650 was periodically tweaked towards HD600's sound signture (not as dark).
    Do you think HD600 has also been tweaked towards HD650's signature? (fuller bass)

    Thanks in advance!
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
  11. LauriCular

    LauriCular Acquaintance

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    Yes, it's being slowly put to bed in its present form - no back stock orders are being taken for instance, but the hope is that Sennheiser will have it all up and running again from April 2018.
     
  12. ipm

    ipm Acquaintance

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    This is not easy to say and is speculative.

    Their current financial report that covers 2016 does not give much information on margins for individual products.

    They do speak about turnover, but it seems like this is in an aggregate sense, so how this relates to individual products is not easy to determine.

    They do mention specific markets: aviation, wireless microphones, 3D sound, and office systems as being on their corporate radar. Hi-fi and enthusiast stuff seems to be lumped into a grouping of 'core business' so this is not really clear.

    Perhaps something regarding the HD660S specifically will appear in the next report that will cover 2017. You never know.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2017
  13. ipm

    ipm Acquaintance

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    This is not really a headphone impression but its certainly worth considering much like the recent reboot of Star Trek.

    Regarding Trek, new fans were attracted to the new look and product (that was conceptually the same, slightly different, and very much modernized) and some old fans liked it as well, but many old fans did not. My guess is that many old fans did not like the discomfort in re-evaluating what Trek was vs. how it could be. As a long-standing Trek fan, I did not like the new shallower plots and character dynamics, but I went with it anyway due to increased entertainment value. This is like anything else. Ultimately, we vote with dollars and purchasing power in the marketplace. No one forces us to take anything. We can walk away. The question then becomes: where to go if the new product is not desirable?

    Over the last couple of years I started looking for an HD650 and HD600 replacement mostly because I dislike modding and also due to having the modern first-world luxury of boredom. So far, I have tired the DT1990A and the K712 but these, as good as they are, are not really 'it' for me even though the DT1990A is pretty excellent when EQ-ed. I'm starting to believe that perhaps there is no real replacement and that an upgrade is in order, which seems to mean the HD800 (or other upgrade headphone from another maker) .

    Perhaps this idea of boredom (and stagnation) is the point for the shift in focus to the HD660S in this crowded market. If they don't shift someone will come along and do it for them. Go and view TOS : 'The Return of the Archons' to see a pretty good sci-fi commentary on this idea.

    This forced angst over the HD660S is of course not as intense as what Otto experienced in Repo Man but it is tense. However it turns out, I bet that it will be OK in the end.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2017
  14. ipm

    ipm Acquaintance

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    If this has not been done already (and I bet that it has been done given how active this site is), then perhaps a purchase of a brand new unmodded HD650 and HD600 for a measurement is in order for comparison purposes.

    My guess though is that some FR curves are probably around to look at: some in this very thread as I just noticed (LOL).
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2017
  15. Ice-man

    Ice-man Friend

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    I realize that my take on the 660 is contrary to many/most others here. But...it's how I hear it, period. . Anything else would just be a lie. Better to tell it like you hear it than just be someone who goes along with the group or popular opinion. I mean lets keep our opinions real, otherwise they are meaningless, right? We all have different preferences and such.

    Someone at Senn asked me to write the review. It was nice to be asked TBH. I respect the hell out of that company. Look at the products they've given us. They did not influence my review in any way. I offered to let them proof and fact check the review before I published it...they declined. They are my words and I stand behind them.
     
  16. ButtUglyJeff

    ButtUglyJeff Stunningly beautiful IRL

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    @Ice-man I hope you don't think you're not allowed to have an opinion that puts you in the minority. You listened to both and formed a real unbiased opinion. If we were 100% for or against something, then this place would be just as artificial as other places on the internet that are focused on promoting products in an advertising agenda with their "partners"...
     
  17. Vorlon

    Vorlon self-important, pompous ass

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    Disclaimer: I know I previously mentioned to stop posting here. Now with some time for reflection I think I may have overreacted. I still stand by what I said though (HD 660 S being closer to neutral* and an overall upgrade in sound quality compared to HD 600/650). Same about some aspects of the overall philosophy here (the secret society stuff, certain level of a "hazing" culture etc.) That being said, it´s still possible to take part in the many high quality discussions here without taking part in certain aspects of this forum culture that I somewhat object to. What mostly brings me back is the high quality discussions that I don´t really find on other sites. It´s exhausting to read 150+ pages on Head-Fi.org only to find 5 posts with high signal to noise ratio... Anyways, despite drawing quite a lot of criticism here it seems I haven´t been banned here so I guess the admins here are ok with me continuing posting?

    Let´s get back to the topic: HD 660 S impressions. This is a bit stream of consciousness, but here´s what I´ve learned with my time using the HD 660 S exclusively for a while until a recent switch to another headphone:

    - HD 660 S scaling less on high quality sources: agreed and I think it would have been a better headphone at 300 ohms. The plus side is that it finally works pretty well even out of standard mobile gear, but who actually uses the HD 660 S in a mobile setting? It´s an open can so it won´t work in open offices at work and most portable rigs will be running IEMs anyway.

    - As for the clarity, better speed etc. I still hear that difference compared to the classic HD6XX lineup. But yes, with really busy music the driver does not keep up with the action that well. The difference is pretty drastic with acoustic/singer-songwriter stuff/sparse arrangements. What colored my initial impressions a lot was that I tend to listen to that kind of music the most so for me the difference was rather drastic. If you listen a lot to more complex stuff you´ll likely have a very different impression. With the standard Katie Melua, Johnny Cash, Leonard Cohen etc. I mostly listen to it´s a fairly significant upgrade though.

    - Bass quality is nothing special in the HD 660 S. It doesn´t reach low and it´s still distorted and fairly muddy. It´s a little faster perhaps and there might be a pinch more clarity, but overall bass is not a big improvement. The HD 700 has better bass (possibly due to the enclosure?)

    - As for treble I just don´t hear it as radically worse than HD 600/HD 650. It´s more extended for sure and less forgiving of bad recordings, but that´s more a problem of the recording instead of the headphone.

    - Shouty mids... Are they more forward than in the classic HD 600 / 650 lineup? Yes. And with some albums it can be too much, but with others it´s fine and actually more engaging compared to its siblings. It all depends on what music you are listening to. With what I mostly listen to, I still mostly prefer the new presentation.

    That being being said, I think one thing where a lot of early impressions went wrong was the big picture. What I mean by this is that in the grand scale of things, the HD 660 S is not a drastic improvement compared to HD 600 / HD 650. It´s a small upgrade if you enjoy the improvements in certain technicalities and mostly listen to sparsely arranged music. Its price is already dropping in Europe - won´t take long until it´s generally sold at 400**. At this price I´d say that if you enjoy the new things that it brings to the table it´s a nice yet not drastic upgrade to your existing HD 600 / 650 (unless you own a megabuck amp, then it makes more sense to stay with the classics).

    Where I went wrong however is that this kind of a small upgrade is not really what most enthusiasts are looking for. If you´ve owned 5+ amps, various DACs, many headphones etc. you are looking for a substantial upgrade to the existing HD 600 / HD 650. A substantial upgrade is simply not what the HD 660 S is and its price (= soon more of less the same as HD 600/HD 650) reflects*** this too.

    Who would I now with more experience recommend the HD 660 S? Mostly to people new to the hobby. You won´t need to invest in a TOTL amp/DAC to hear it at its best. Just go for a cheap Dragonfly RED/small Schiit Stack/whatever and enjoy a quality sound at less than 600 euro/dollars total. Who else? People who absolutely love the HD 600/HD650 comfort factor and are ok with it being a small upgrade in certain aspects and do not own or have an interest in buying one of the megabuck amplifiers. If the Clear is as good as early reports imply, it may have major implications for the high end game too: why buy a megabuck amp to get the best out of the HD 650 / 600 when you can buy a Clear and run it with a sub-500 dollar source and get a superior sound?

    Note however that I haven´t heard the Clear yet. I´m going to listen to the Focal Clear at a dealer tomorrow to see if it impresses me (I was not a fan of the Elear with its midrange dip and the Utopia is simply too heavy and uncomfortable for my head plus I found it more fatiguing than a HD 800 S).

    The HD 800 (S) on the other hand is definitely not the way to go if you are looking for a HD 600/HD 650 upgrade. It´s a completely different beast. I recently ended getting the HD 800 S back (the S version simply because there are great trade in deals for that; almost none for the original plus I don´t want to venture into modding). It´s not perfect, but I stand by my previous assessment that if the speaker experience is what you are after the HD 800 series with its huge soundstage gets the closest to that ideal so far (but no, it´s still far from perfect). I guess I also have to admit that I probably have a thing for treble that exceeds "neutral" as I don´t have a problem whatsoever with the stock HD 800 S treble. What I seem to value most in headphones is probably something like: soundstage/out of head sensation > comfort > smooth but very extended treble > mids resolution > bass. Also I tend to mostly listen at low volumes to that probably explains some of that.

    Now that I´ve gotten accustomed to the HD 800 S I´ll probably be selling the HD 660 S soon as it simply feels too claustrophobic coming from HD 800 S. With my preferences my guess is that I won´t enjoy the Clear (I found both the Elear and Utopia quite claustrophobic) more than the HD 800 S, but time will tell.

    * If neutral is defined as a ruler flat frequency response from near field full range studio monitors (this sound is also commonly referred to as bright by many).

    ** Which most early buyers in EU paid by the way; there was a 20 % off double coupon for all the early purchases direct off Sennheiser (I never paid full price)

    *** Not taking the MassDrop HD 6XX into consideration as its price is not all that good for EU people (shipping costs, added customs and sometimes they don´t even sell outside USA and so on).
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  18. limesoft

    limesoft Friend

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    I also was seriously hoping the 660S was going to be an upgrade to my HD650, but it wasn't meant to be... When I heard it I found it leaner, shoutier and clampier... mostly "er" in a bad way :(
     
  19. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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  20. taisserroots

    taisserroots Friend

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    I have a Xiaomi redmi note 3 pro.
    It's a 5.5inch smartphone. I now rotate it in between my eyes so that the 8.7mm side is right between my eyes and up close.

    This is the best I can do to describe the hd660s staging.

    It is a line almost that thick in between your eyes in the middle of your head with a decent amount of depth. It is rounded at the edges more than any other hd6x0.

    While it is probably was the most dynamic and has the greatest sense of clarity and texture amongst them while retaining the mid timbre. It was the most forward and shouty.
    The staging and short decay made it very hard to listen to and very nauseating. My impressions are short because it did not jive with me at all.

    While I love my hd580 and this keeps most of that mid timbre with greater technicality. It's other aspects make it a far more polarising headphone which isn't as safe to recommend to newcomers who don't know their preferences.
     

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