USB Nervosa Thread Decrapifiers, pro interfaces, and bears oh my

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by zerodeefex, Sep 28, 2015.

  1. Sonofsin

    Sonofsin Acquaintance

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    I am afraid my vocabulary for digital artefacts is somewhat limited. The word I have read here that suits my impressions best, is digital hash. This gives a slight impression of how the effcet sounds. Digital grain may fit as well, but seems a bit generic to me.

    The question about the recordings is a good one. However the spread of recordings I have used should be sufficient. And a hihat should sound like a hihat. As USB and SPDIF sources sound different in my setup - if I could have the best aspects of both combined, I would already be quite happy. So this should be possible theoretically at least.

    What i wrote is, that the problems do sound similar, as if from the same family of problems. They do not sound exactly the same. Now I cannot comment on what is going on inside one of Mikes crazy multibit machines, but shouldn't there be a clock in it as well?

    What are your experiences regarding digital sources?
     
  2. earnmyturns

    earnmyturns Smartest friend

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    My suggestion is that you get an Allo DigiOne Player (https://www.allo.com/sparky/digione-player.html) or equivalent to feed the Modi Multibit via S/PDIF (I actually own a Pi 2 Designs 502DAC for S/PDIF into one DAC, and an Allo USBridge for USB into another, I'm recommending the DigiOne Player because it is all-in-one solution for S/PDIF, and maybe easier to get in Europe) . The main problem with Modi Multibit and other Schiit Gen 2 USB inputs is that they are somewhat vulnerable to electrical noise coming down the USB connection from inherently noisy sources like every laptop USB port. Gen 5 Schiit USB is much better, but it can't fit into a Modi Multibit, that's why people use the Eitr. S/PDIF quality depends on the quality of source clocking and isolation of electrical noise too. That's what a well-designed S/PDIF source like the DigiOne helps with. The price is right, too, a full network player for the price of an Eitr.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2018
  3. Dzerh

    Dzerh Friend

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    - by a chance, could you mean "analog noise from digital sources"? Digital artifacts are usually products of some processing by player/driver/DAC (for example downsampling without differing). Something should go really bad to have it on USB/SPDIF layer. But it is pretty easy to have analog parts affected by the noise transmitted by the cable.
    - my understanding that primary cause for Modi Multibit warming is bring the DAC chips to specifications.
    I'm rarely listen critically, mostly as background during work, so I'm mostly satisfied by USB (Gen2 in case of Schiit) from Foobar2000(Win10,WASAPI) or DeadBeef(Kubuntu) playing CD rips. Still I keep cables short and put ferrite chokes on PC's end, just in case. Maybe I just lucky with USB ports...
     
  4. Sonofsin

    Sonofsin Acquaintance

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    Dzerh: By all means - if you are satisfied - please stay satisfied. That is the most important thing! I cannot tell you at the moment what's the source of my problems. I will try a better SPDIF source and report back on the results.

    Earnmyturns: Thank you for a nudge in a good direction. Yes, Digione's availablity is much better here than with 502. I was leaning towards an Eitr, but honestly just out of laziness. Raspi should be a more interesting mini-project. This will take rather 2 weeks for me than 2 days, but I will definitely report my findings here. My motorcyle needs repair after winter and is eating this months resources. But yeeah - it also sounds very nice!
     
  5. Dzerh

    Dzerh Friend

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    Sorry, just wanted to help you in identifying the source. Source of digital artifacts usually lays in software domain, starting with recordings mastering and ending with DAC digital filters. Just make sure your software chain is clean, like recheck players and OS settings and actual files you playing, before spending money on new hardware. Some check box reset to "default" on OS update may change sound significantly.
     
  6. Sonofsin

    Sonofsin Acquaintance

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    Thanks and noted! Also a good reason to have a taste of Pi for a change. I tried USB Audio Player Pro on Android and Foobar on Win7 so far. FLAC 44.1/16 ripped from my CDs.
     
  7. Sonofsin

    Sonofsin Acquaintance

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    Ahh, I am cured. Thanks, Doctor SBAF!

    The Allo Digione/Raspbi makes a big difference for me as compared to plain USB input on the Modi Multibit. My problems with digital "hash" are gone, the sound is much cleaner. But I do not think that it was only a problem of incoming USB noise, I think the better clocks also make a difference.

    By now I realized that the thread "Modi Multibit for the masses" would have been a better place for this, so everybody with similar issues please look over there. You will find a lot of info there.

    And thanks earnmyturns - now it's time to check out some of your jazz recommendations.
     
  8. allegro

    allegro Friend

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    I try to avoid nervosa now but I consider the Eitr essential in my rig, along with the Loki. I lucked out and found an exceptionally good matched pair of 1943 RCA 1626 which to my ears are as good as the Tung-Sol now impossible to find.

    For grins last night I took the Eitr out of the chain and ran USB straight to the Brooklyn DAC+. I immediately noticed a slight veil to the sound, could not hear fine details as well. This indicates to me the USB implementation on the DAC+ is either normal for average USB or just plain sucks. I put the Eitr back in and all was well. I could hear deeply into tracks from a very black background. Don't throw tomatoes at me please; I bought the Brooklyn before I joined this forum:)
     
  9. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    Ultimate cure for equipment nervosa: attend a concert in a venue with fine acoustics and no electronic amplification. Acoustic performance only.
     
  10. jexby

    jexby Posole Prince

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    I disagree with Acoustic performance only.
    have listened to my lossless GYBE files for days after attending a local 2hr performance, and will choose the 7 or 8 person, amped and amazing live performance anytime to my ears.
     
  11. Darren G

    Darren G Friend

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    Regardless of an amplified performance or not, I do agree with the key point. No fixes for gear-itis can replace a live music experience.

    p.s. that written, agree with @atomicbob that non-amplified live experiences have a way of significantly changing perception of what 'live' music sounds like.
     
  12. Erikdayo

    Erikdayo Friend

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    Since my previous post I've switched from the Onyx to a RME ADI-2 DAC, and now an Eitr is most definitely not needed. USB implementation seems at least on par with Schiit gen 5. Farewell DAC nervousa. Still working on solving the amp and headphone portion, but I feel close.
     
  13. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    I attend a lot of "acoustic" concerts, but the acoustic stops at the microphones and the sound is played to the hall amplified. Sometimes far too much. On several occasions, I've thought. If my hifi sounded like this I'd throw it away.

    but...
    Live music is still live music. With a live audience. I can't get a social life with any other form of listening!
    Absolutely. Given the same genre of music, I have had wonderful experiences of unamplified concerts. There are whole levels of subtlety which are completely lost in the equipment that is used around these parts, and even if they had the best, almost none of the "engineers" would know how to use it.

    Bottom line: Yes to atomicbob!
     
  14. crazychile

    crazychile Eastern Iowa's Spiciest Pepper

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    When I worked for a Magnepan dealer, Magnepan would reimburse the cost of 1 pair of concert tickets per year to attend a live, unamplified show for anyone selling their products. Their theory was, once you know what unamplified music sounds like, you'll realize that Maggies do well to recreate that experience.

    But that doesn't fit much with my musical preferences, or the ability of the local symphony to sound significantly better than a high school band. I wanna ROCK dammit, and most of the venues I've been in either sound like ass, or the sound guy was coked out of his mind.

    Having said that, the best sounding shows tend to be either not amplified up to 11, or feature a smaller number of simultaneous performers. Tori Amos, Ben Folds, Joe Jackson, and Violent Femmes have been great, and even Oingo Boingo sounded awesome with the amount of band members approaching the size of a football lineup.
     
  15. maverickronin

    maverickronin Friend

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    I've always found myself the odd one out on this one. I've never enjoyed live music. There are several different reason for this.

    First, I listen to music to relax and since I'm an introvert I can never relax in a crowd. Second, the majority of my preferred music is amplified or synthesized so my gear is probably going to be higher fidelity that whatever PA system they have set up at the venue. Third, you can do things with the soundscape in a stereo mix that are either impossible or rarely attempted with a live performance.

    The first two really vary from person to person, but I almost never see anyone commenting on my third reason. As I see it, a live concert is like a play and a studio album is like a movie. The move has multiple takes and probably special effects crafted into an specific experience while a play can do fewer things but has a greater focus on the performance of those involved.

    Do any of you guys like attending live plays or stage shows too? I can certainly see why people do, but it's not my thing.
     
  16. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    All through undergrad and grad school I took full advantage of the student rates for the theatre and symphony and had season tickets to both for years. Even for those who don't enjoy classical music, I highly recommend attending at least one good symphony concert. For the most part, a concert hall is going to be sonically tuned better than an arena rock show or coffee-shop-turned-music-venue. There's a certain feel to the sound when you have a hundred instruments across a 50 foot stage that is simply not possible from a PA system.

    I once attended a church service where there were 1000+ people in the congregation. Being in the midst of that during the singing was a phenomenal experience. It's not music that I would ever listen to in my spare time, but to be in the midst of a thousand voices, where you can feel that energy resonate in your lungs, it's mesmerizing. True acoustic energy that isn't coming from a speaker. To feel such power from the ambience, rather than something radiating from a cone.

    If your preferred genre is synthesized music though, well, that's really a whole 'nuther ballgame isn't it? For me, one of the reasons for this stupid audiophile game we play is in chasing that acoustic reproduction. If there's nothing to reproduce though, then you're playing a different game that just happens to be on the same field.
     
  17. maverickronin

    maverickronin Friend

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    Maybe about 30~40% is synthesized but even if all of it was I'm not sure that's what would make it a different game for me.

    What would do that is the fact that I'm more of the a by the numbers guy and think of reproduction as reproducing the bits on the disk and not how close it is to some imagined "Real Life", especially since very little music is even recorded or mixed with that goal in mind. Expecting a studio album to sound "realistic" is kind of like asking where Peter Jackson rounded up all those orcs for the battle of Helm's Deep. You should be asking how well your TV represents the bits on the bluray disc's video stream and not if the picture on the TV looks like a real orc. The realism is encoded in the media itself, not the playback device and the playback device should be judged by its fidelity to the media.

    Given that the majority of people on audiophile sites I've frequented don't seem to exclusively listen to genres where "realism" is even possible, much less commonly recorded and mixed, I think the actual goals are different. I think the audiophile game is really about finding gear that fits you preferences and complicated by the fact that audiophiles are generally a nit-picky bunch. What pros do you value the most and what cons can you live with. If you eventually run out of nit-picks you can relax and enjoy the music.
     
  18. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

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    You've never been to New Zealand, evidently.
     
  19. alubis

    alubis Acquaintance

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  20. nachocheese70

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    Nervosa is nervosa, regardless if it’s playback (USB, DAC, amp, headphone) or live including being a musician (can’t get more “live” than if you’re one of the people playing).

    Going to a live concert, one can worry about the “best” acoustic seat (is the $150 more expensive center orchestral seat worth it). Being a musician there’s endless potential nervosa regarding is this the best sounding instrument. Maybe the neck or bridge (or whatever) needs a little work. Did the luthier mix the glue right that day when binding the wood for you instrument, or some other obscure but nervosa inducing thing.

    While some nervosa is good (it can drive people to truely find better things) sometimes the best thing is to take a deep breath, keep everything in perspective (ones whole life, family, friends), and sit back and enjoy what one already has. Just my 2 cents.
     

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