Tube Buffers - Solid State Headphone Amps

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by TheIceman93, Feb 10, 2017.

  1. TheIceman93

    TheIceman93 El pato-zorro

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    So with all the talk about using the Schiit Saga's tube buffer to "fix" the Jotenheim, I wanted to start a discussion about adding tube buffers between DACs and SS headphone amps. Thoughts? Is this just a waste of time? Better to buy a straight tube amp or are there benefits to these hybrid systems?
     
  2. thegunner100

    thegunner100 Hentai Master Chief

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    Adding a tube buffer won't change the Jotun's output impedance. The HD800s for example benefit from an amp with higher output impedance, and tube amps will usually provide that. It just seems that if you're not getting the Saga mainly to use as a pre-amp for speakers, it doesn't seem worth the money for a "fix". You're better off buying a better amp or waiting for Gen 3 amps from Schiit. You could also use that money to buy a better dac or a non-usb solution as well.
     
  3. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    I suppose it depends on what you're actually after, what you think you need to "fix" and what you consider to be a "benefit".

    If you're looking for something that sounds like a tube amplifier, then that's really what you want to buy. Pure-tube designs will typically be much more sensitive to tube-selection than tube-hybrids if you want to play around with tube-rolling (though it'll still affect a hybrid design).

    Tube buffers can add some pleasant distortion that might result in a sound you enjoy more, but like most things that's hard to predict without listening and, likely, going down the tube-rolling rabbit hole. I'm not sure I'd use a Saga just for that myself but again it depends on what you're trying to "fix".

    That said, I did just add a Saga to my day-job office rig. That was mostly because I'm adding sources there and wanted the input selector, am running two amps (Jotunheim and Lyr 2) and still wanted to do that, and the switchable tube-buffer was a nice bonus. I could have done this with splitters and a simple line-switch, but this is prettier (which matters to me) and was as good excuse as any to play with Saga while seeing what effect it has on Jotunheim:

    Schiits.jpg

    With this configuration I can have the extra slam and color of the Lyr 2 when I fancy it, or the better resolution of the Jotunheim, and run the tube-buffer as well if I feel like it. Of course, this doesn't let me apply the tube-buffer when I use my turntable since I'm using the phono-card in the Jotunheim at the moment - but that'll change as soon as I settle on what phono-pre I want to upgrade to for the little office-table I'm using:

    Day Job Rig.jpg

    Some DACs offer built-in tube-buffers/output stages as well (some switchable, some not). The MHDT Stockholm v2 I had for a while was one of those and it was reasonably tuneable if you wanted to fiddle around with the tube in that. But, again, it all comes down to what you are trying to achieved.
     
  4. TheIceman93

    TheIceman93 El pato-zorro

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    The end goal is solid state detail and tightness bit with a bit of warmth and treble roll off. My current setup it a bit too peaky. I love my Beyer DT1990, they are like 90% perfect but they are a hair too hot in the treble and my Neve amp can be a bit piercing on certain tracks. I don't want to drop cash on a full tube amp like an EC until I can afford a really nice one so in the meantime, I'm looking for a way to add a bit of tube warmth and more pleasing treble to my setup. It sounds like the Saga would be perfect for that since it seems to have solved some of the same issues that people were having with the Jot.
     
  5. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    Just get a Vali 2 with a good meme tube and save. Fixing the Jot is a fruitless endeavor. Listening to Beyers on it is an even bigger catastrophe.
     
  6. TheIceman93

    TheIceman93 El pato-zorro

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    I don't own a Jot but if people are saying that the Saga improves the Jot then maybe it will do the same for other SS amps that have been described as being highly detailed but bright and sterile (Neve, Violectric etc.).
     
  7. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    EQ is going to be a more reliable fix for peakiness or ensuring treble roll-off - with much more precise control and the option to have different configurations for different situations. It's also much cheaper. However, not everyone likes (or can run) EQ. I'm in that camp and don't generally use it outside of my studio.

    Otherwise, a dedicated tube-buffer is likely to give you more of what you're describing, which would mean something like the iFi Micro iTube 2 (which has three different tube topology options, as well as switchable cross-feed and bass-enhancement).
     
  8. TheIceman93

    TheIceman93 El pato-zorro

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    I've considered EQ but all my listening now is through my CD trans so EQ is now out of the question. I was wondering about the iTube 2 vs the Saga. They sound like they do the same thing but I thought maybe the sound quality of the Saga would be higher for some reason. Is the iTube just a straight buffer? I thought it was a preamp as well.
     
  9. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    They have some functionality in common, but they're different in intent (and execution, obviously).

    I can't comment on which has better "sound quality" as I've not heard the iTube 2. The closest to it I've been is a similar-but-different implementation in the Pro iCAN. The Tube+ mode on that has a more pronounced effect on the output than I'm getting by switching the tube stage in and out on the Saga.

    You can run the iTube 2 as a straight buffer, with or without gain, and if you do so the volume pot (attenuator) just acts as a power switch (this is configured using DIP switches on the underside of the unit). The iTube 2 is intended to let you choose "how much" (or rather "what type") of tube-sound you're going to get so I'd expect* it to be a lot more audible in what it does than the tube buffer on Saga. And then you have options for bass enhancement and "crossfeed" (which on the iFi Micro iDSD BL mostly wound up boosting the treble).

    --

    *Again, I've not heard the iTube 2 ... I'm just speculating about the results based on what it is supposed to do.
     
  10. Lenroot77

    Lenroot77 Friend

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    I'm not exactly sure how well received the Liquid Carbon is here at SBAF but when I had this amp I found it to take the edge off a few of the headphones I previously had (Hd800,Hd700 and the Dt990's)
    Combined with AGD Dac 19 ( a bit more "syrup-y" than Schiit r2r's) the Hd800's were relatively smooth without any mods or Eq/Sonarworks.

    Maybe you'd consider a LC? Pretty easy to find under 600.
     
  11. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    If you're thinking about a Saga to pair with an SS amp, why not get a Mjolnir 2, which is already a hybrid? The cost wouldn't be much more, if any.
     
  12. thegunner100

    thegunner100 Hentai Master Chief

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    I've read enough threads to know where this is going. You want it, so go get it. I don't think we're gonna change your mind if you're just looking for confirmation bias.

    This.
     
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Another thing to consider is that Saga is still very transparent. Might make a dry sounding SS amp less dry, but it won't do enough to de-edge a Beyer.
     
  14. TheIceman93

    TheIceman93 El pato-zorro

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    I was just wondering if others had experience adding tube buffers to solid state headphone amps. I have absolutely not made up my mind one way or the other.
     
  15. TheIceman93

    TheIceman93 El pato-zorro

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    Well its a latest gen Beyer so its treble offenses are mitigated in comparison to earlier models. The old DT990 is impossible to save though. The DT1990 however just needs a bit of treble taming to make it a really killer headphone. Detail for days, emphatic tight bass, great soundstage width and depth. However its just a bit too hot in the treble. Using the alternate pads makes it very neutral, very U shaped and brings the mids more forward but the treble is still a bit fatiguing but I know my amp is contributing to that.

    I've spoken to people who have compared the DT 1990 to the HD650 on good tube amps and have found that the 1990 beats the 650 in some areas when properly amped. I'm not saying its a better headphone than the 650 but in my opinion, it is highly underrated.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2017
  16. Lasollor

    Lasollor Friend

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    I will have a Saga in my hands within a few days, together with a few 5692, 6SN7, 6SL7 tubes and an 6SN7-> 6922 adapter so I plan to play with it a little.
    I will comment on my findings here, but I don't expect anything special, I spent a whole day last week comparing the Vali2 as a preamp to the Jot with different tubes, different connections (rca-rca, xlr-rca cables from Yggdrasil) and I couldn't tell it apart from the Yggdrasil+Jot balanced set. The funny thing is that I thought I hear differences like more laid back sound, smoother treble when I listened to a whole album without the Vali2 in chain first, then again the same album with Vali2 as a pre. But when I tried to A/B-ing a song quickly changing the input with the Jotunheim's input selector it just sounded the same every time with every song. Expectation bias?
    Now the difference in bass slam between low gain and high gain on the Jotunheim, that I could hear and I prefer the high gain.
    Also note that I like the Jotunheim as it is (with HD650KM) and I'm not trying to "fix" it, just playing with stuff.
    I also have a beyer dt150 and while it is technically not as good as the HD650 I think it has similar tonality. I like it with the Jotunheim, and I can quickly change between it and the HD650 when I need more isolation without getting a totaly different sound signiture. (I couldn't do the same with Alpha Dog and HD650 )
     
  17. Big D Design

    Big D Design RIP 2021

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    @TheIceman93
    Here is the strange way I brought tube sound to my solid-state computer DAC......
    I have an Asus Xonar D1 sound card on my Win7 workstation. It uses BurrBrown DACs and it is one nice sounding unit. It has Dolby for the speakers, and Dolby Headphone for my headphone front panel output on the front panel of my computer. I bought the MassDrop HiFiMan HE-350 headphones. So I added my Quinpu MK-6000 headphone amp to the headphone output from my Asus Xonar D1 sound card. Quinpu MK-6000 has been upgraded to a new model I think it's up the the Quinpu MK-6500 or 6300, don't remember. Anyway, it's a cheap Chinese tube amp that sounds spectacular. And with a good DAC feeding it..... even better. HiFiMan headphones needed the added headphone amp to really get any hifi out of them. Works for me. And I just love the addition of tube sound. Pic below
    [​IMG]
     
  18. TheIceman93

    TheIceman93 El pato-zorro

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    I just ordered an iFi iTube 2 buffer last night. Should be here Monday.

    I'll be testing it first with my Neve RNHP and later a Lake People RS02 with the Beyer DT1990 Pro's. I figure it will be a nice complement/enhancement to a very precise, neutral, clinical (some would say sterile) SS amp as opposed to a SS amp with built in coloration.

    I'll burn it in for a few days and then post my impressions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
  19. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    any update on the itube2?
     
  20. Gruss Gott

    Gruss Gott Almost "Made"

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    Bump for the update - wondering what you thought
     

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