SBAF DAC Talk II

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by Maxx134, Jul 22, 2018.

  1. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    Babyface Pro will be more than fine for your DJing endeavors. RME are known for legendary drivers which is more than nice to have for public performance.

    As for your primary sound machine... ADI-2 Pro? The Lyra is a boutique converter, so there's not THAT much to choose from. Dangerous Music might have what you need.

    If you're extra brave, just dunk on the plebs and get a Merging Technology Anubis.
     
  2. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    I had the ADI-2 briefly and sold it. While I liked it, it doesn't have mic pres and I'd rather not add another device to the desk.

    Oh dang I haven't seen the Anubis before, that's a pretty piece of kit. Do I really want to go down the AoIP rabbit hole though? Curse you and your wonderful toys...
     
  3. cskippy

    cskippy Creamy warmpoo

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  4. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    I thought the USBPre2 was fairly dated by today's standard? I remember reading about that one back in the early days of head-fi (or is this one of those products that has updated itself over the years?)
     
  5. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    @Armaegis The Prism drivers and digital mixer suck. Go RME Babyface Pro or MOTU Ultralite AVB/mk4 or Presonus Quantum 2 if you want something that actually works. The MOTU sounds best, the RME is the most portable and can be bus powered, and the Presonus is rather congested and saturated but works.
     
  6. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    MOTU is only not more popular because it's not retard proof. They're new AVB stuff kicks ass for what it is if you can set it up and set your buffers right. RME is retard proof if you can figure out Totalmix and set the buffer so that your system is stable. The Presonus Quantum is even more retard proof than that. The sound quality of the three inversely correlates with how retard proof the gear is.

    Now. thunderbolt Apogee, if you had a Mac, is totally retard proof. More retard proof than UAD. They're shit is shilled by Apple for Logic now. You can't even really clip it easily because of the soft limiter you have to turn off but it sounds good if colored and a little too warm for the price but Apogee sold out to retards with the Duet years ago. MOTU and RME haven't yet despite RME's newfound appeal to the retards from reddit and ASR.

    Mind you, Amir was too retarded to set up the wonky Focusrite drivers. So setting up a Rednet system is beyond retarded, no can play, modern "producers" and retarded tech bro idiots. The sound is worse than MOTU, maybe better than RME in some ways, but less retard proof and still made in China. That just tells you that retard proofing does not always inversely correlate with sound quality.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
  7. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    I was actually kinda curious about the MOTU Ultralite AVB since it still has USB if I (likely) never get around to setting up the AVB portion.

    Any thoughts on the Mk3 vs the Mk4? I know the Mk3 is quite long in the tooth now, but there's also one available used locally for about $250usd.
     
  8. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    It sucks in comparison and I'm not sure MOTU is going to keep updating the drivers. Only the MOTUs with the newer ESS DA conversion rather than AK codec chips are worth buying. If you're never going to use the AVB to hook up more MOTU gear to it, why not just get the mk4 ESS version or the RME Babyface Pro? You can plug those into more stuff than the Presonus Quantum. The RME is cleaner than the Presonus and less lofi.
     
  9. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    The price difference between the mk4 and AVB is relatively small, so I figured the few extra bucks for a future "maybe" isn't all too bad, assuming the converter and preamp quality is the same in both.
     
  10. AudioNut

    AudioNut Acquaintance

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    The MOTU 828mk2 and below aren't great, but IMHO the mk3 and similar gen UltraLites are decent. The Firewire-only 828mk3 can be a crazy good value these days since you can only really use it with older Macs or the Apple Firewire-Thunderbolt adapter and a lot of people are getting rid of them for that reason.

    I think you're right that they're soon going to stop updating the drivers for these older units. I do some CoreAudio programming, and Apple has changed and deprecated too much stuff for it to be feasible to keep updating the older drivers without a complete rewrite. Note that on Macs these older drivers do have one feature that newer MOTU units don't have: the ability to sync the internal clock to another hardware device through the OS, rather than through a word clock input.
     
  11. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    Yeah, Apple is slowly killing off all the older interfaces, just like they kill off their still perfectly usable computers. Some of those are quite okay like Apogee pre Apple Store dumbing down and Focusrite Sapphire. Remember the Focusrite firewire DSP mic pre that did on hardware DSP emulation way better than current UAD ?I don't get the UAD hype. Where's the body and low end? WTF is with the mids being so forward? Do they actually think that whatever the hell they did to a PCM2500 + their shitty SHARC chip dsp actually sounds like a Neve or API?

    I remember MOTU going from awful to okay to great and RME from awful to okay. I just don't remember the model numbers, especially for the RMEs.

    The only thing I don't like about the MOTUs is that you have to hook up each to the computer with an ethernet cable to update the firmware but thankfully not the drivers. This is because the USB code can now be updated but you would never normally hook it up to the computer with the ethernet port that is solely used for AVB connection, which caries the clock now. That could be a major pain in the ass with rack mount gear in weird places far from the DAW.
     
  12. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    I think someone mentioned this DAC / HP Amp (with one of the worst names ever) before, but here’s a quote from a website that did RMAF coverage and finally has the price:

    [​IMG]

    I thought this DAC looked pretty interesting when it was announced, but $5k - yoikes.

    Edit: I don’t know if this is close to the true pronunciation, but every time I read about this DAC I hear the name in my head as “Feed-a-lice”. Anyone else see that and wonder what the heck they were thinking?
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  13. Pharmaboy

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    Speaking of DACs, I recently sold my NOS DAC (Audio GD NOS 19) & replaced it with the MHDT Labs Orchid, also an NOS design. I also picked up a recommended NOS tube for the buffer circuit. Anyway, after burning in this DAC 150 hrs, I heard small but welcome sonic changes vs the NOS 19. Earlier this week I got around to replacing the stock buffer tube w/the NOS tube, and instantly everything got even better.

    Sonic differences between DACs can be pretty hard to determine in a desktop audio setting (probably easier to hear those differences on a big 2-channel system). Still. it seems I have a very good-sounding NOS DAC on my hands. The bass is amazing, noticeably better than the NOS 19's, and that had very good bass. Plus the soundstaging seems better. Hard for me to pin down since it's a nearfield situation w/little room between back of the acoustic suspension monitors (ATC SCM12 Pros) & back wall. But still, I'm hearing more space/better spatial cues in music.

    In the midst of another loan of @Jinxy245's Aeolus (!!), and it's even easier to hear these system changes via this really excellent headphone. This Aeolus has Verite pads installed, said to be the most neutral sounding, and it has been knocking my brains out the past week or so. Never heard it sound so good before on various SS amps At least some of that is due to the DAC.
     
  14. AudioNut

    AudioNut Acquaintance

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    Anyone heard the Antelope Amari, which looks like it's finally shipping? Antelope's stuff has been hit or miss in the past, but the Amari is a little interesting in that it's one of the first converters to use the CS43198, which apparently was developed by some of the Wolfson team after the acquisition. They're literally using 8 pieces of the CS43198 plus their signature oven. Might be worth a listen.
     
  15. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    Antelope is half-assed, inoffensive sounding eastern block trash. Do not believe the good reviews from people who have never heard better or used their products beyond their stereo. They’re another awful scam manufacturer with a long history of awful products that do not work that they quickly abandon for the next half assed piece of shit. The same with Arturia and Presonus. At least Presonus has kept the Quantum lofi Thunderbolt trash going for a few years. You’ll be able to get Antelope’s 3000 dollar trash used for under 300 bucks in a couple years.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  16. taisserroots

    taisserroots Friend

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    Antelope depreciates hard like psal said, the old DACs are considered competitive at the used market prices and nowhere near msrp
     
  17. taisserroots

    taisserroots Friend

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    I got to try these at canjam London

    I tested these with my hd580, mainly because I know how they sound on different sources and it's an easy point for comparison.

    All the units were tested as AIOs, maybe the inbuilt amp holds the DACs back to different levels.
    So I wouldn't say this is conclusive.

    I also wouldn't buy any of these for sole headphone use since they are around Yggdrasil size and hard to place anywhere you'd use headphones.
    But I'm a young student without a lot of money, so that may change as I can afford them.

    DCS bartock (in the quiet rooms upstairs):
    warm in a lush sense, rather than slam of bloat
    The dynamics are a bit on the soft side, stronger than the big chord.
    Closer stage with hd800 (demo), but it had this coherency in the stage that was missing with the Dave, the Dave was wide and lacked the level of depth the Bartok has, but something with the imaging and layering made the stage feel less coherent than the Bartok.
    Quite airy up top, it's a decently resolving aio, I think there are better options for my tastes and at the price.
    Massive AF, bigger than Yggdrasil by a large margin.
    Slow sense of decay, it sort of feels like the sustain is being held for a while.
    Lower mids have this liquidity which makes low playing guitars and bass guitars a bit muddy
    Slightly bumped here, to emphasise this part of music.

    It's decent brit-fi
    I always find this tailors to people who listen to music which mainly consists of single instrument melodies. With this kind of music brit-fi offers a unique listening experience which I don't find in other gear, it's just a lack of flexibility with other music
    I like music with a good sense of rythm and progression and the lush character doesn't work with those as well.
    From this session i'd say Bartok>Dave as an aio, although I've heard the Dave as a dac for a headphone system and I think the Bartok is a more competitive offering, despite both being poor comparitive value.
    I don't know how they compare in a speaker system, I'd recommend going for used DCS standalone DACs as I think neither makes sense as an AIO and I don't feel chord has any competitive standalone DACs which compete with the Bartok or non-portable gear.


    Rupert Neve fidelice.
    More dynamic than the little, but this is disappointing, especially compared to the M3 and the RME. It just sounds like the dynamics are compressed, really narrow stage lacking depth.
    The veil of the RME in terms of the softer transients doesn't do as much harm to music as the compression of the fidelice.
    I wasn't expecting much to begin with and I still felt disappointed.
    It also broke at the show, forgot how.


    Bricasti M3 (focal booth):
    Very similar to the M1 (can't remember well enough), in terms of sonic characteristics, you can tell that they have a very similar sound.

    The timbre is just right, no excess warmth like I find with schiit multibit.
    Hd580 is shit to judge treble extension.
    They had cher- believe, so I had to listen.
    The resolve is a tier above dcs bartock, in terms of microdetail.
    Internal amp is not the most dynamic, but overall it's the most dynamic aio I have heard so far.
    It's also a bit smaller than the raggy 2, so would work in a headphone situation.
    Stage is wider than Sabre with a greater sense of depth, whereas ess9018 Sabre I've tried often has this contrast effect.
    Seperation is emphasised in a way which makes staging more cohesive, you get a sense of how the sound of each instrument blends into the space without them going over eachother.
    Reveals things like tape hiss between different samples and any grit with guitars quite well.
    Not forgiving, in that you can definitely tell compressed samples, but this helps create nuance in listening between tracks from the same album.
    This does something a lot of DACs don't do, where the position of a vocal doesn't shift as the singer changes note, it's annoyed me with a few random Chinese DACs.
    Managed to prevent different guitars strumming low notes at the same time from getting muddy on my hd580, which is a good achievement considering hd6x0 bass performance.

    With my current preferences I prefer the bricasti, I have heard from someone who tried it with speakers that the stage was much smaller and not as well resolved compared to the M1 on speakers to gimp it, but I can't test that myself.

    I do agree with Psalm that with ad1955 something doesn't sound as clear, while it doesn't bother me when I'm taking impressions, I'm not sure if it will bother me long term.
    I don't think it's a greyness since it has very good background and the resolution is pretty good.
    I need more time to put my finger on it.
     
  18. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    @taisserroots so the RND dac is just as disappointing as the head amp? It’s a shame the design seems to have gone downhill from the awesome old AMS Neve and 80s/90s Focusrite stuff.
     
  19. Firegon

    Firegon New

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    @taisserroots Just to be 101%, by RME ( in the section about Fidelice ) do You mean the ADI-2 DAC / PRO ?

    I've discovered the Fidelice line just yesterday and was somewhat interested ( as I'm still looking for a DAC preferably with capable built in amp ). I'm still hoping that might be a test unit or someone has messed up the settings somehow. I remember that during the 2018 AVS someone responsible for Bartok messed up and it sounded so lush, warm and mellow, that most of the dynamics were lost in the process. It got fixed later and turned out to be one of the "stars" of the show.

    And as for the Antelope - MSRPs are laughable, but at 10-15% price for used models, they can be considered good value. Zodiac Silver with Voltikus PSU was the one of the best DACs under 400$ I've ever heard. Bought it for roughly 360$, sold for 330 - so the market has certainly verified the original price.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
  20. taisserroots

    taisserroots Friend

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    The adi-2 dac.
    I haven't heard the pro.
    They had a few bartoks at the show and I heard 2 different examples.
    I wouldn't call it compressed, it definitely has better dynamics than the adi-2 and Dave, just not compared to bricasti I've heard.
     

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