Pi 2 Design - How do I get started?

Discussion in 'Computer Audiophile: Software, Configs, Tools' started by purr1n, Jan 6, 2020.

  1. dasman66

    dasman66 Self proclaimed lazy ass - friend

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    FWIW, I don't need a "Stream what you hear" type app or UPnP server with moOde... I just turned on the UPnP client in moOde, installed bubbleUpnp on my phone and moOde did the rest.
     
  2. YMO

    YMO Chief Fun Officer

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    Sounds like Volumio will do no fuckery Tidal/Qobuz if you just use it as a DNLA/UPnP render, while use BubbleUPnP as your DNLA/UPnP Controller.
     
  3. exocer

    exocer Acquaintance

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    blubliss, I'm interested in learning more about your Gentoo Player setup. Have you compared sound quality to Moode?

    Edit: I answered my own question by simply trying Gentoo and I believe this is the distro I will be sticking with. To my ears, in my setup, Gentoo Player sounds more transparent (to my ears). Nothing else gets sacrificed in the process. I have only tried it ramrooted. Cheers
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2020
  4. goreshade

    goreshade New

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    Is the OS wiped out every time you turn off the Pi if it's installed on RAM?
     
  5. Gazny

    Gazny MOT: ETA Audio

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    Roopie loads onto RAM, and does similar things with tons of support. Free as in freedom

    To answer your question: Yes kinda of.
     
  6. Navin

    Navin New

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    Hi, this is my first post. I found this forum while looking at Raspberry Pi based solutions.

    Currently, I play CDs (I have over 3000 of them collected between 1985 and 2020) and LPs (As CDs came later, I bought a CD copy for all my LPs, but I don't have LPs for each of my CDs). I managed to rip all my CDs to a Hard Disk using Exact Audio Copy and WavPack (I thought it was WAV). Then using FooBar I converted all the WavPack files to FLAC because there is very little hardware that supports WavPack. So now I have about 2TB of lossless music. Phew! For someone of my generation, this was a task. I even checked the Album Art for each album.

    Additionally, my nephew has been pestering me to get Tidal with MQA. He will set it up but I need to get a "streamer" that can (a) play files from Tidal and (b) a self-powered LaCie D2 Professional USB Hard Disk.

    The Plan:
    1. Build a Streamer (I used to build big Class A and Class AB amplifiers in my younger days) using Allo's USBridge Signature for "Clean USB" out and then use a Pi2AES HAT for SPDIF, AES, and I2S out.
    USBridge Sig - Ultra low noise RPI (allo.com)
    PI2AES - PRO AUDIO SHIELD - Pi2 Design

    2. Built a Regulated Linear Power supply with 24V/3A and 5.2V/5A out for the Pi2AES and USBridge. (this part is easy)

    3. Install the CORRECT software on the USBridge / RPi 4B (this part is downright scary for me).

    4. Buy a DAC that has I2S input (The Gustard X16 is on the top of my list but so far unavailable in my country - India).

    Connect Streamer to DAC and DAC to my Preamplifier/Power Amplifiers and Speakers and enjoy.

    I read this guide (see link below) and got even more nervous! :)
    Building a Raspberry Pi-based streamer - a guide for the nervous | Super Best Audio Friends

    I have no knowledge of PCs or Software.

    1. Will the USBridge work better than an RPi 4B with the PI2AES? After all, it was purpose-built for audio.

    2. What software is most reliable when a self-powered USB Drive is connected to the USBrdige / RPi 4B? Some say Moode, some say Volumio and still others say Max2Play. I use Apple TV for Netflix so am familiar with simple menus.

    3. Is there some way to get either the RPi 4B or USBridge Signature to decode MQA so the DAC can render the same?

    4. Can the RPi 4B or USBridge Signature even decode MQA?

    I apologise, in advance, for the interruption and the "stupidity" of my questions. Any/all help would be appreciated.

    Thanks.
     
  7. dasman66

    dasman66 Self proclaimed lazy ass - friend

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    To start, please Read new member guidelines and Introduce yourself here

    After that, a good starting point is the Dummies guide to Pi2AES - it will give step by step of how to put this stuff together. You can ask questions there... it's an active thread. This thread was more of a specialty topic that has long since been abandoned (ie., 6 months with no posts)

    Finally, regarding MQA - no one here is really a fan of the another DRM... and no one here pays much attention to their blatant cash grab (other than to complain about it). I believe full unfolding of MQA requires specific hardware in the DAC. It's not something that a rPi or hat is going to do for you (but someone will correct me if I'm wrong)
     
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    LOL, I eventually figured it out and wrote a true dummies guide here: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...-to-pi2aes-throw-away-your-pc-or-laptop.8878/
     
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    1. The point of Pi2AES is for using the AES and SPDIF outputs. Some people think the AES and SPDIF outputs sound better than USB.
    2. Different opinions on software. The gist I get is that Moode is the most stable and bulletproof. I have been using Volumio without any issues though.
    3. With the streaming options available today, go hires 24/48 or 24/96 instead of the lossless MQA format. What music do you listen to that only comes in MQA?
     
  10. Metro

    Metro Friend

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    After you get the streamer working, you might consider also using Roon software to access your 2 TB of music. Pi software (Volumio, Moode, etc) have primitive user interface, and Roon provides a massive improvement in user experience. The downside is that Roon have a subscription fee. They offer a 30 day free trial and you can see if it is worth the cost to you.
     
  11. Navin

    Navin New

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    Thanks. Let me read that.

    I want to use Pi2AES for its I2S output.

    I understand the Pi2AES SPDIF and AES outputs are limited to 192/24. Apparently, this is the limitation of Raspberry Pi 3 around which the Pi2AES was made.

    I assume this because according to the link below Raspberry Pi4 can handle streaming DSD512
    https://community.roonlabs.com/t/gr...-without-issue-with-full-screen-output/103553

    The USBridge Signature that I intend to use with the Pi2AES is also limited to 384k (PCM) on the GPIO but can stream PCM768kHz/DSD512 via the USB "CLEAN" output.

    https://www.allo.com/sparky/usbridge-signature-pcb.html
    "Audio output on USB is full 512 DSD / PCM 768Khz (DSD 1024 theoretically possible)"

    I was wondering if the I2S output of the Pi2AES would hence do better than 192/24 and maybe operate to the max output of the GPIO (DSD256 / 384k in the case of the USBridge Signature and 512 DSD / PCM 768Khz in the case of the RPi 4B)?
    https://community.roonlabs.com/t/dsd-with-pi2aes-over-i2s/106314/12

    Is the Pi2AES I2S output also limited by the WM8804 (which limits the SPDIF/AES outputs)?


    For the record, Allo's DigiOne Signature is also limited to 192/24 on the SPDIF outputs (thanks to the WM8805).

    Right now, I don't "need" MQA. I suspect more and more music will become available on MQA and HiRes (DSD256/512) and would like to have a streamer that is future proof.

    Yes. Once I get the streamer working. My first step is to get the Gustard X16 DAC in-house (from overseas).

    Now the question remains "Why do I want to use the I2S connection".

    Well, primarily it is to keep the USB connection free in case I want to connect my laptop to it.
    Secondly, it is to see what is the maximum performance one can extract from the Pi2AES / USBridge combo.

    Finally, the Gustard X16 can render but not decode MQA (1st unfold) via its I2S input. If the streamer could do the first unfold (decode) MQA it would be lovely.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2021
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I'll be totally honest with you and tell you that you are going to lose because you way too concerned about higher sampling rates and believe in the magic of formats. I've heard many fairly recent DSD and 24/192 masters sound worse than their 16/44.1 counterparts released decades ago. With current releases, I've heard no difference between 16/44.1, MQA, and 24/192. The specific master makes the biggest difference. This is why forums like SteveHoffman.tv exist.

    Don't theorycraft audio. You'll end up spending money on a lot of shit that makes no difference to the ears when that money could be allocated to better gear, headphones, speakers, amps, even DACs.

    Any DAC can render but not decode MQA. The reason is because MQA decodes (lossy) into PCM. In fact, most MQA starts as PCM. And if it did start as DSD, then it most certainly was mixed or mastered in PCM. MQA is lossy compressed hires PCM.

    --

    That being said, I know that I will not change your mind. The pi2AES is not what you want given your requirements. What you want is the Lumin U1.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 30, 2021
  13. bilboda

    bilboda Florida boomer

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    Roon will handle MQA from Tidal but with limited bit rates. I'd skip Tidal though and use Qobuz. Dorsey ain't getting my money. I'll echo what has been said about DS and higher bit rates. Many of these are remasters from the originals and simply upsampled or converted to DSD. Some newer recordings are direct to DSD but even new recordings are frequently analog or lower rate digital conversions.
    Download a trial of HQPlayer and do your own conversions on the fly. Professional level software with a multitude of options to sort through. See if you like the sound. It has made improvements for me as I sort through the options. For overall improvement of the music listening experience I am still undecided.
     
  14. Michael Kelly

    Michael Kelly MOT: Pi 2 Design

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    And I2S!
     
  15. Navin

    Navin New

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    Thanks.

    Thanks.

    Firstly my search for a streamer that stream MQA or DSD128+ is only to ensure it does not become obsolete. I do not for one second doubt that the quality of the recording has anything to do with bit rate or even quantization. I suspect that somewhere in the future people will understand DSD and MQA and their limitations better and use them better. MQA to me is like MP3 on steroids. It is lossy and compressed but "promises" better than other lossy and compressed formats.

    I was surprised to see that although the RPi4 can offer greater throughput than 192/24 on the GPIO, the Pi2AES's I2S limits itself to 192/24. I know I am currently happily listening to 44.1/16 so 192/24 should be a big jump from there. It was just obsolescence that I was worried about.

    Some DACs (like the Gustard X16) can decode and render MQA via USB but not via I2S. This was the reason I was looking for a streamer that could decode MQA and send it to the DAC via I2S.

    Lumin, Aurender, Auralic and many others are just glorified RPis with good power supplies, lovely cases, etc. Some people find value in spending $3k+ on a streamer + DAC, I don't. That's why I am looking at products like the USBridge Signature and Pi2AES.

    If I was to buy a solution I'd spend my money on a Matrix Audio Element M, Teac NT-505 or maybe even a Project Stream Box DS2 T/Dac Box DS2 ultra, NAD C658, or Cambridge Azur 851 or something along those lines (Bel Canto, Primate etc.).

    Of course, I hope/wish for a USBridge 2 Signature based on the CM4 and a Pi2AES ver2 that can passthrough I2S at 384k. It is how progress happens.

    BTW this YT video popped up in my "suggested videos" last night.
    How do DDCs improve audio? (Denafrips Hermes, Pi2AES, Schiit Eitr, ifi Igalvanic) - YouTube
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
  16. Navin

    Navin New

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    On a completely unrelated note, I am unable to like any posts. I can't even find a place where I can ask this question. Is there some setting I have missed or do I have to be of a certain age before I have this privilege? Thanks in advance.
     
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    First of all, DSD is obsolete. It became obsolete the day Sony decided they didn't want to make SACDs anymore. Stupid dumb rich audiophiles kept it alive as a long as they could (despite DSD material being mixed and mastered in PCM, and then converted to DSD). Today I think DSD is more or less dead, replaced by the new buzzword MQA - as you said MP3 on steroids.

    Second of all, indications are that MQA will be obsolete soon. Given how fast Internet speeds are (my download speeds are 400Mbps), there is absolutely no need for lossy compression of hires PCM material. The fact that MQA decoding requires a license, a royalty payment to that wanker at Meridian, and that MQA requires additional work, an encoding step, will contribute to it being obsolete. Tidal, the #1 proponent of MQA isn't exactly making money either. MQA was a solution to a problem that never existed or wasn't going to exist soon.

    What won't be obsolete is hires PCM. I've yet to find anything that was strictly available on MQA that wasn't already available in hires PCM.

    As for your 384k via i2s requirement, yes the Pi2AES does not support that. You will have to get something else in the meantime or wait until a new version that will support 384k.

    --

    Again, I think you really need to ask yourself: do you listen to music or do you listen to bitrates, sampling rates and formats? I would think that the pi2AES going obsolete (given that it costs less than an entry level headphone) would be the least of your worries. I'm sure your car, which is worth hundreds of times more than the pi2AES, is already going obsolete - that is, it will lose value and eventually fall apart - not being worth the money to repair it.

    And let's say the world does change in three years and everybody cool is using MQA, DSD, and 32/384. Will it be worth that you hemmed and hawed about the pi2AES being obsolete and completely missed out on what 24/92 and 24/192 material was already available today?

    Finally, I doubt you will even hear a difference between 16/44 and 24/96. I certainly don't on most material - this based on blind tests. The only time I hear a difference is with recordings from boutique studios of say speciality stuff from the SFO with Michael Tilson Thomas conducting... and even then I wouldn't bet my life on being able to tell the difference in a blind test.

    P.S.

    As for 384k material, it will never exist. No one works at these sample rates in audio production. (Well, a few oddball recordings do exist on boutique Japanese labels - using crappy AD converters - there was sort of an obsession with DSD/PCM 24/384 about 8-9 years ago).

    P.S.S.

    SBAF is probably the last place you want to chase stuff like DSD512, DSD1024, MQA, or PCM32/384. It's cultural. It's not that peeps here are not into DSD2048 or special unobtanium PX25 toobs made in 1927 - some are. It's more that you'll find members pulling you back into reality: it's about the music - and that the gear is the means - an always imperfect means. Listen to music, not formats. Listen to music, not tubes.

    TBH, if you are considering the X16 as your serious DAC, the last thing you should be worried about is formats.
     
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  18. Michael Kelly

    Michael Kelly MOT: Pi 2 Design

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    The I2S port of the raspberry pi and cm4 are limited to 192khz because the cpu chips on them limits this.
     
  19. Navin

    Navin New

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    Aha. So while the GPIO is capable of higher the I2S port is limited. Thanks.

    I was told by someone (forget who) that the Pi2AES can also be powered via a 5VDC input (instead of 24VDC).

    The reason I ask is that I have access to an Allo Shanti and was wondering if the Pi2AES would be satisfied with the CLEAN side of the Shanti (5V/1.2A).

    I was also considering the BiFrost 2 as a chip-based R2S (multibit) dac.

    Which DAC would you recommend?
     
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    On the "clean" power, you may want to ask @Michael Kelly how much additional regulation he builds into the pi2AES board, which by design also feeds the 5V for the RPi board.

    @rlow did a comparison with the stock Meanwell switcher and an external LPS. He found that the sound was different and a matter or different, with one being smoother and more forgiving and the other being more incisive and energetic. External LPS on gear designed with switchers in mind do not necessarily make things sound better.

    As far as DACs, that is a totally open question which is dependent upon what headphones, what amps, and your preferences. We usually start with what you are doing right now, what are the components you are using, what recordings do you listen to (not genre, but specifics are more helpful), and what do you like and what you do not like. This allows us to calibrate each of our own personal preferences and suggest directions to go.

    If one prefers a simplified pure objective approach, then it becomes x100 easier. Audio Fake Science Review has the SINAD of hundreds of DACs and amps lined up on bar charts.
     

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